Episode 100: Bob Satawake on breaking protocol in diplomacy and in life

Bob Satawake recently wrote a book called "Breaking Protocol," about his experience as the spouse of an American diplomat where a male spouse, and certainly a gay male spouse, was an unwelcome surprise.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason: What's it like to be the spouse of a US ambassador? If you're Bob Satawake, it involves breaking protocol in more than one way. Stay tuned for Good God and Bob's story.

George Mason: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm pleased to welcome to the program today my friend Bob Satawake. Bob, good to have you with us.

Bob Satawake: How're you doing? Great to be here.

George Mason: Great. I'm going to hold the book up here and mention that you have written this book called Breaking Protocol: Forging a Path Beyond Diplomacy. We're going to get into some of the protocol and diplomacy aspect of it later in our conversation, but this book actually talks about your path generally too, and that is, it takes us back to your childhood and to how things emerged for you along the way. I found that to be at times heartbreaking in fact. That I think this is a story that's important to understand the rest of your story also. You and I have been friends for several years now and you are a member of our church, you and your husband Wally. But getting to the point where you would be a married gay man in a Baptist church is an extraordinary thing based on where you grew up and how that happened. Tell a little bit about what it was like to grow up in rural Oklahoma.

Bob Satawake: Sure.

George Mason: As a young Native American, poor gay man in a culture that didn't really foster and nourish your identity as such, huh?

Bob Satawake: Yeah. Well yeah, interesting you put it like that. It sounds like it's a whole other book maybe. I don't know. We'll have to think-

George Mason: A lot of it is in that first part.

Bob Satawake: A lot of it is in there. I grew up not unlike a lot of rural kids grew up in that general area of the country. That is with families that lived day to day, paycheck to paycheck, and in a somewhat unsophisticated public education system that didn't get a lot of attention from the more elite areas of the country. So it was growing up in that environment where regardless of who you were, there was no anonymity, because it was a very small place and everybody did know everybody. It was one of those small towns, again not unlike the thousands of small towns in this entire country where people grow up without any anonymity and somewhat in the spotlight of their community, if you will.

Bob Satawake: So there were things that are obviously very good about those environments. Being insulated is not always a negative thing.

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: It can bring some very positive attributes, and your community can rally around those in need in, I think, a much more efficient and effective way at times, if you-

George Mason: Right, because you know everybody.

Bob Satawake: Because you know everybody.

George Mason: Right, it's like a family, a big extended family.

Bob Satawake: It is, it is, and just like big extended families, we also have our challenges, and-

George Mason: You could be dysfunctional.

Bob Satawake: It can be a little dysfunctional, and unfortunately, I look back on that. I say unfortunately because it did have some impact in the path in life in which I traveled and in the choices that were available to me as a young person. I did not have the types of choices and exposure to global education that someone growing up in a big city like even Dallas would have had at that time.

Bob Satawake: I grew up going to church and a Southern Baptist church. That was a focal point, I think, for a lot of community activity, whether it was ... Well, I only knew of three religions when I was growing up, Southern Baptist, Catholic and Jehovah's Witness. Those were the only three religions I knew, and I didn't even know others existed honestly, until maybe even adulthood, to be quite honest about it. I think I learned of the Mormon faith in college, not really truly understanding what that was. But beyond that, I had no idea about global faiths and Buddhism and Muslims and Jewish people and Jewish religion and the Jewish faith. I knew none of those things. We weren't exposed to that type of thing.

Bob Satawake: With that said, I'm not saying that that was necessarily ... that lack of exposure was negative. We were relatively... From a faith community, I would say that people were relatively kind. I never, as a young man, never heard, ever heard the church speak of homosexuality.

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: I think primarily because, again, that insulation of being not exposed to that. Now, young kids in school and my bullies in school certainly had heard about these things.

George Mason: Well and you were bullied in school.

Bob Satawake: I was.

George Mason: To the point where you actually changed schools because of that.

Bob Satawake: I had to, yeah.

George Mason: Yeah, so when you-

Bob Satawake: That was a rough time.

George Mason: What you take away from that experience, is it related more, would you say, to your Native American identity, to your being gay, to your not fitting in, in other ways? What would you say about that?

Bob Satawake: I think it was a combination of our economic position in the community and the perception of my fellow classmates of being a gay man. I say perception because at the time, though I may have had conflicting feelings or not the same feelings toward young girls that my fellow classmates were having at that time, I certainly had no idea what homosexuality was or what that meant.

George Mason: So in a way, your classmates told you who you were almost before you fully understood it yourself.

Bob Satawake: Long before.

George Mason: Isn't that interesting?

Bob Satawake: Long before?

George Mason: Yeah.

Bob Satawake: I do think there is some relevance to that. I do think that young people are very perceptive of the differences between themselves and in their fellow friends of similar age. I'm no child expert, but I was a child at one time and that certainly was my experience.

George Mason: So the pain of rejection of your peers led you to move to your uncle's house, right?

Bob Satawake: This is true.

George Mason: And go to another school where they didn't know you.

Bob Satawake: That's correct.

George Mason: What was that like in your family for that to happen?

Bob Satawake: It's interesting. I've never had the discussion with my mom and dad beyond the time that all this took place. My reflection and what I write about in the book was obviously it was a very strained time within our family. But I don't particularly remember it being strained specifically because I needed to leave the town where I was living. I think looking back on it as an adult now and realizing that I really was going from one very emotional environment into another very emotional environment, but being unaware that the environment I was going into was that emotional.

George Mason: How did you come to a deeper awareness of your sexual orientation? When were you able to embrace that and to say, this is just who I am and I'm going to accept it as such?

Bob Satawake: Awareness and embracement-

George Mason: Would be two different things.

Bob Satawake: Entirely.

George Mason: Okay.

Bob Satawake: I certainly became aware of it in college, that I was a homosexual and that I was struggling through the comfort levels of that. College was the first time in my life that I was exposed openly to other gay people. Even though I did not befriend them, I certainly understood somewhere in the core of my being that they were human beings, the same as everybody else and deserved the same treatment and access to all of the college environment and experiences that I had access to. We even had those challenges on campus.

George Mason: Sure, and this was a big state school you're talking about.

Bob Satawake: It was, University of Oklahoma.

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: I remember specifically there being a debate in the student government, whether or not at the time, the gay group ... I don't even think they called them gay. I'm trying to remember, honestly. I don't know what they called them to be honest with you, but the homosexual group on campus one, could they even be officially recognized? That was one debate. I think the debate around that was if they were officially recognized, then they would be entitled to funds from student government for their organization and access to meeting spaces and things of that nature. I remember this being a very contentious debate in student government, and the whole time, my question was, why is everybody so up in arms about this?

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: I didn't have the wherewithal to really understand why I was thinking that way, but I knew that they were humans too, and they certainly ... That was their school as well, and I just felt like, well they should have access to that. I think maybe part of it was I knew intimately what it was like to be rejected from my high school days.

George Mason: So fast forward to Dallas because you eventually moved to Dallas. Now you're flying for American Airlines-

Bob Satawake: That's correct, I did.

George Mason: ... as a flight attendant, and you are living in Oak Lawn, right, or thereabouts.

Bob Satawake: Right.

George Mason: Right, and so you find yourself now in a gay friendly environment. I think people don't fully understand how helpful it is to acceptance to be actually in a community where there are others like you and you can just more or less be yourself, right? Was that a big factor in your being able to accept who you are, and because I know you met Wally during that period of time as well.

Bob Satawake: True. Yeah, so in 1988 when I moved to Oak Lawn, it's interesting you use the term, it was a gay friendly environment. It wasn't a gay friendly environment. It was a community of gay people, and a community of gay people that literally had come together, not unlike other gay communities all across this country, for the same purposes as a lot of small towns restrict growth. That is, they want to be insulated from the rest of the world-

George Mason: I see, yes.

Bob Satawake: ... for protection purposes and where they can have communication with their neighbor and not feel like they're going to get their house burned down because of who they are and who they love. So Oak Lawn in 1988 was a very different Oak Lawn than it is today.

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: But to answer your question, yes, it allowed me to realize ,really, for the very first time that not only was I not really a minority, but I was part of a really large minority.

George Mason: Okay. That helps to have the sense of numbers, the sense that I'm not really so strange here in the world. But I have a sense of community with others who are making their way in a healthier way than I might've have wondered. So you meet Wally in Dallas and you begin a life together and eventually moved to Chicago where you get into the real estate business. Wally is in business as well, and you begin to get involved in LGBT advocacy work as well. This leads eventually to your support of the Obama campaign and to your leading a national democratic LGBT group.

George Mason: Ultimately, this is going to take us ... I'm fast forwarding the story, but it's going to take us all the way up to you and Wally becoming intimately involved in the diplomatic process that leads to Wally being appointed as ambassador of the United States to the Dominican Republic. What a remarkable leap that is in just a few years together, right?

Bob Satawake: It was a pretty remarkable leap. It really all took place over the course of about a 10 year period really.

George Mason: Yeah.

Bob Satawake: It was not accidental. It was definitely very directed and intended. Fortunately, the outcome proved to be fruitful, hence, I guess that's why we're sitting here now. But yeah, it was a great experience all the way around as well as life changed dramatically overnight from literally moving from Dallas to Chicago. Life's just changed overnight. It's amazing what exposure to different communities ... I've had the good fortune over the years of having traveled now to 72 countries and experiencing what globalization truly is. Having the opportunity to have had that educational experience, I've always learned a little something from every community in which I've engaged with through the course of my travels, whether vacation or other types of travel.

George Mason: Sure, so let's hold that thought, because I want to come back and speak specifically to the diplomatic period in the Dominican Republic and what you learned from that. We're going to take a break and be right back.

Bob Satawake: Okay. Sounds good.

George Mason: Great. The Good God program is a project of Faith Commons, a nonprofit organization I founded in 2018 to help promote the common good. Doing public theology across faith traditions and across racial and ethnic lines is an important thing today in our communities. We hope you'll continue to enjoy Good God, but look at some of the other things we're doing also through Faith Commons at www.faithcommons.org.

George Mason: We're back with Bob Satawake, the author of Breaking Protocol: Forging a Path Beyond Diplomacy. Bob, just in the first segment of our conversation, we got all the way up to your being appointed as "the spouse." Eventually, you and Wally got married and Wally Brewster, your husband was appointed and confirmed by the US Senate to be the US ambassador to the Dominican Republic. This was in early 2013 that you went to the DR. Of course, when you got there as a married gay couple to a traditional Catholic country, they opened their arms and welcomed you unabashedly, is that right?

Bob Satawake: Well, I guess it depends on whose perspective you're looking at.

George Mason: I think you tell the story in the book. That's part of what breaking protocol really was about.

Bob Satawake: Right.

George Mason: Not because you intended to, but because the tradition of that culture and the relationship between the leaders of the Catholic church and the country's political leaders, this was not a really welcome development for them, was it?

Bob Satawake: Certainly not for the leaders of the Catholic church and specifically the Cardinal of the Catholic church in the Dominican Republic who is an extremely influential Cardinal in the Western hemisphere. Historically, there is a lot of detail that I could go into, but for the purposes of this conversation, let's just say he has one of the most influential Cardinals or was, I should say, at the time.

George Mason: Was, right.

Bob Satawake: He is no longer the Cardinal, but yeah, he was not welcoming with open arms. In fact, he took extreme measures to do everything possible to prohibit my husband from actually getting his appointment and confirmation. But fortunately, the government of the Dominican Republic, even though certainly engaged quite intimately on many levels with the Catholic church, did stand firm on diplomatic protocols and accepted my husband's appointment.

George Mason: Good. Yet you experienced again a feeling of persecution from the church, and when I say the Catholic church, but nonetheless it was the Christian Church. So here you were someone who grew up a Southern Baptist and who has maintained a commitment to your Christian faith as well as your husband Wally, and you find yourself being held in contempt by the people who also follow Christ. It was continually a challenge, I'm sure, to maintain your own spiritual identity through all of this, hasn't it been?

Bob Satawake: It was difficult to maintain your spiritual identity from a public persona, I would say. My husband and I have had this conversation many times, and we never questioned our own spiritual journey through all of this. We certainly never questioned our own faith in God. With that said, there was a lot of comfort that was provided to both of us through our own faith, our own beliefs and from those around us who were fellow Christians and were quite vocal about the activities of this particular leader within the Christian community. Yeah, I mean I am quite frank in the book-

George Mason: Yes, you are.

Bob Satawake: ... about my perception of the motives behind what those particular individuals were trying to accomplish. I believe I say something along the lines of that not all poor people are bad people. Not all people who call themselves Christians are believers and followers of God.

George Mason: Right, right. Well, so that's part of the challenge that you had in the Dominican Republic. But another part of it also was just coming to grips with the fact that you were a male spouse of a male diplomatic leader, the ambassador, and all the protocols that were deeply in place for spouses were oriented toward a wife, not-

Bob Satawake: They're not oriented, they were developed. The whole protocol was the fact that these roles were women and they were defined by very archaic measures of what a woman is to a man, of what a wife is to a husband. Obviously, not only was there just no place for a male spouse, certainly a gay male spouse, but there certainly was no place for a male spouse, even a straight male spouse.

George Mason: Right, so this is not about just the fact that you were a gay couple, but it's just breaking protocol wasn't a choice you made. It was just the way it had to happen. There were adjustments that needed to be made. There was innovating and figuring out how you would make your way. When could you be with your partner in certain diplomatic places? Where were you prohibited from being? How would you use US money for this and personal money for that? It was a constant negotiation wasn't it?

Bob Satawake: It was. It was a constant three and a half year negotiation. What's interesting about that is if the leader of the church had ... the Catholic church, I should say, had had his way, I would never have left the house. He as much told my husband that that should be the case.

George Mason: Right.

Bob Satawake: He met with him within the first two weeks of us arriving in the country attempting, I think, on some levels to explain the lack of appropriate reception from his boss, the Cardinal about our entry into this diplomatic community. Then ... I'm trying to be diplomatic here, you understand.

George Mason: I understand. Well, you are a diplomat, yes.

Bob Satawake: But he told him just straight up that, "Your husband should live behind the walls of the embassy in this residence and should not be seen in public with you. If you were to abide by this advice, I think things will go well for you. However, things could get difficult if you choose otherwise."

George Mason: So one of the things I think people don't understand about an ambassador role is, well first of all, there are two kinds of ambassadors, right? There are career ambassadors that work for the government and are sometimes moved around to different countries. Then there are political appointees that are ambassadors. You fall into this category Wally was. Even when I say you did, part of the story of this book is another protocol challenge. That is Wally was the ambassador. There's no official role for a spouse. It's one that needs to be made up, but you're always in the shadows. Are you part of this diplomatic team, or is it really just the ambassador? That was a hard thing for you to figure out as well, wasn't it?

Bob Satawake: Well, I think the definition behind that, and it is very difficult to figure out, but the definition behind that is it all depends on who you work for. My husband worked for Barack Obama, so in our scenario, when he was confirmed and sworn in by the vice president, we were told at that point that you are a team. Your husband, Mr. Ambassador, will have diplomatic credentials and you are a team. You are to do this work together, and so we set out to do that.

Bob Satawake: Look, at the end of the day, we did have to make up our own rules. It wasn't just within. It wasn't just local culture that, I think, at times were questioned motives and rightfully so because they hadn't ever been exposed to this particular set of circumstances. But then the other challenges we faced were within our own Stat department who, up until as recent as the 1970s, actually evaluated an ambassador's performance on his wife's ability to conduct a dinner party.

George Mason: Oh my goodness.

Bob Satawake: So these are things that we're still, to this day, overcoming. Right. I will say this, I think it's fair to say that I had ... in the Obama administration, I reached out to many of my colleagues who were spouses of ambassadors who were men married to female ambassadors, straight men with children. Trust me, their challenges and the roles in which they were restricted to were just as challenging for them on a different platform than the challenges that I faced as well.

George Mason: Bob, as we wrap up our time together, I want to go back to the title of your book, Breaking Protocol, because some of that was just that you were groundbreaking as a gay couple in this role, but some of it was chosen. That is to say, you and Wally have recognized that you have a moment in history here where you find yourselves with political influence. You've chosen to be active as activists to give hope to a generation to come, realizing that in many ways, you have to endorse some of the pain that you hope they won't. What would you say to people about the promise of taking on these challenges, the difficulties, but also the promise of it and why it's important sometimes to stand up and to be counted in situations like this?

Bob Satawake: It's difficult. It's hard. You will question whether it is worth it. I think ultimately, you have to really, truly ask yourself, what am I here for? Ultimately for myself, and I feel pretty confident I can speak for my husband as well, and that is, we're here for one thing. That is the world should be left better than we found it. We have a responsibility to provide whatever talents that we can to support an initiative forward for people's lives to not have to endure the challenges that we endured.

George Mason: Good. Bob, as your pastor, it occurs to me that part of our Christian faith is the willingness for us to follow in the example of Christ. He was the one who was not willing to just comply with the status quo, but he himself took up his cross and was willing to sacrifice himself out of love for others. We today are his followers not simply to reap the benefits of it, but also to share in his suffering and in his mission. So I see you having that kind of courage, you and Wally continuing to blaze that trail. I know that for generations to come, there will be people who are grateful because of your leadership in all of this. So thank you for what you've done and for what you are doing, and we're looking forward to the next chapter in the Bob Satawake and Wally Brewster story. But the book is Breaking Protocol, and I hope others will buy it and read it. Thank you for your contribution.

Bob Satawake: Oh, well thank you, George. It's a pleasure to be here.

George Mason: Great. Thanks, Bob.

Jim White: Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White, social media coordination by Cameron Vickrey. Good God, Conversations With George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God, faith and the common good. All material copyright 2020 by Faith Commons.