Episode 72: Interfaith Friendship with Omar Suleiman

Why is it so important for people of faith to have relationships with those of another faith tradition? Today, George continues a conversation with his good friend, Imam Omar Suleiman, about how they became friends and what that means for making a difference in their communities. 

George says: “To have gotten to know one another and to have a proximity to pain and to stand beside one another over time and to listen to one another made it morally impossible to be a responsible person and a religious leader and not to speak [about racial and religious injustice].”

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason: When tragedies happen in our community, sometimes there is a religious dimension, sometimes racial or ethnic. And the question is, how do we deal with these events from a faith perspective? I'll be talking with Imam Omar Suleiman, a Muslim faith leader here in Dallas and my friend, on Good God. Stay tuned.

George Mason: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith in public life. I'm your host, George Mason. And I'm pleased to welcome back to the program today, Imam Omar Suleiman, my good friend and colleague here in Dallas.

Omar Suleiman: Good to be back. Thank you.

George Mason: He is a Muslim imam, a leader of prayer. That really is a title ... More than an a clergy title, wouldn't you say?

Omar Suleiman: yes.

George Mason: How would you, how would you describe what an imam is?

Omar Suleiman: Well, if I describe myself as an imam versus ...

George Mason: Ah, okay. All right.

Omar Suleiman: So, no, an imam definitely means a prayer leader, so whoever's leading the prayer. But it contains concept of leadership. So leadership in many capacities-

George Mason: Very good.

Omar Suleiman: Depends on the culture, depends on the context.

George Mason: I understand. Well, in our context and in our community, you are a leader and one that we respect-

Omar Suleiman: Thank you.

George Mason: And turn to repeatedly-

Omar Suleiman: Likewise.

George Mason: One who has been both a seeker of justice and a pursuer of peace in our community. And my personal gratitude is to you for-

Omar Suleiman: Likewise.

George Mason: The way we have found not only friendship but common cause in working together in Dallas through Faith Forward Dallas at Thanks-Giving Square.

George Mason: This is an organization that was formed in the wake of the shootings of the Dallas police officers. Actually you started before then-

Omar Suleiman: Before then, yes.

George Mason: But I think most people's attention was focused on Faith Forward at that point, because you and Reverend Michael Waters and Rabbi Nancy Kasten formed the co-chairs of that group for three years. I've succeeded you in that particular role now, but we continue to work together-

Omar Suleiman: You're doing a much better job than I ever was, so thank you-

George Mason: Well, I wouldn't say that. You all set the tone and I'm just trying to organize the next generation of it, you might say, but-

Omar Suleiman: We're blessed by-

George Mason: Well, thank you.

Omar Suleiman: We're blessed by your presence and all that you've done for decades here.

George Mason: But it's really important, I think, for us to acknowledge that we have now a growing pluralism in America.

Omar Suleiman: Yes.

George Mason: Dallas is a ... People refer to it as the buckle of the Bible belt, right? And when they say that, what they mean by that tends to be conservative white evangelical Christianity. To a certain extent they might even mean more specifically Baptist or Methodist, Baptist and Methodist dominating that landscape for a long time.

George Mason: But we have now a growing sense that America is looking more like the world. And we are finding that our neighbors are not of the same faith, let alone denomination, as they used to be.

George Mason: I like to joke almost that, you know, three generations ago, Omar, to have an inter-faith marriage meant that Baptists were marrying Methodists, you know?

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And then it became Protestants marrying Catholics.

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And now it's Christians marrying people of other faith traditions, you know?

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And so, we really have moved into a much more pluralist environment.

George Mason: And what are your reflections about this development in how Dallas is changing, America is changing, as we are finding that we can see one another and understand ourselves better because of these interactions?

Omar Suleiman: Well, there's certainly a lot of hope. I think that what we are doing is pioneering work, not just for America but for the world. The relationships that we have formed here, the genuine relationships that we've formed formed here.

Omar Suleiman: Because inter-faith is usually sort of ... It's very much so limited to dialogue. One of my congregants referred to it as it used to be a gathering of the elites or sort of like a bunch of pastors that are talking to each other every once in a while or pastors emailing rabbis, but never really trickled into the communities. And there wasn't much relationship. Most faith leaders see each other when they get to the panel.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: Whereas with us, we're truly becoming family. We are a family. You're family to me.

George Mason: Well, and I thank you. And I think people should understand that we text one another frequently.

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And when something happens in our communities ... And when I say communities, I don't just mean here in Dallas. But when the shooting happened in the synagogue in Pittsburgh, you were the first one, from what I understand, to have contacted some of our rabbi friends here in Dallas.

George Mason: And likewise when the terrible murder happened in New Zealand, the terrorist attack on the mosque there, you heard similarly from Christians and rabbis who immediately communicated-

Omar Suleiman: You were one of the first.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And you came to the press conference that morning when I was still in a very bad state. You consoled me when I cried that morning. And you consoled our community when we all came together. And if you remember when we came together that night in the mosque, where the mayor of Dallas, the mayor of Richardson, Congressman Allred came, Congresswoman Johnson sent her representative, and we had our faith leaders. There was a round of applause when we introduced Faith Forward Dallas and said, "These are my people."

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: Because the community felt its genuine nature.

Omar Suleiman: So Dallas ... You know, we lead the country in many negative aspects. We lead the country in racialized poverty. South and North Dallas are very different, as we know.

George Mason: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Omar Suleiman: We have many hate groups in Texas. The largest concentration of hate groups in any place in America is here in Texas.

Omar Suleiman: But that has forced us in a very special way out of our complacency to rise to that challenge. And I think that what we're doing here does not just have the capacity to transform Dallas or America, it really has the capacity to transform the world, especially with social media. This show right now is going to be watched by someone in Pakistan and Nigeria. And that's the beauty of this growing ability to reach the world.

Omar Suleiman: And so many people have used online to reach people in a way that would split them up in their real lives. We need to use our online presence to bring people back together and to show people the potential of unity. And if we can do it here in Dallas, you can do it anywhere.

George Mason: And we are working on it. And unfortunately, we've had some very significant events take place in Dallas when it gave us opportunity to practice what we preach in our relationships.

George Mason: Now, I think one of the beautiful things, of course, is that when you have existing relationships of trust, then when crisis happens, you can depend upon one another. But when crisis happens, you need to show up and you need to speak up and stand up and all those sorts of things or all the other relationship moments are really platitudes and don't have substance to them.

George Mason: But what are some of these events that you would chronicle, where you've seen how we have been able to model that going forward and creating a more just and peaceful society?

Omar Suleiman: Well, I mean, I take it back to Charleston, right?

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: When the AME Church shooting happened.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And I recognize a significant stride that we made as a multi-faith community. And then, again, the very personal relationships that we've developed. So, that, to me, like with Reverend Michael Waters at the time ...

George Mason: Who was an AME pastor.

Omar Suleiman: He was an AME pastor, right. And so, he would say that the first people that reached out to him were the Muslims.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: And so, that's sort of ... It was a turning point for him.

Omar Suleiman: And I remember I was standing next to Michael, and someone walked up, an elder lady from his community, and said, "You two need to work together more often."

George Mason: Oh, very good.

Omar Suleiman: So, we look at that as a prophetic moment.

George Mason: Lovely.

Omar Suleiman: And you know?

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: So sometimes it's a very specific community that's targeted, but it's about how we all show up for that community.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And then moving beyond the moment and talking with one another, forming relationship beyond the moment, so that when the crisis happens, that might be the next time that the public sees us together in public.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: But there's been a lot that's happened between those two incidents.

Omar Suleiman: Now, the Dallas police shooting definitely marked a turning moment for us. I look back at that and it's crazy to think ... I was sharing with some people July 7th passed now three years ago and without much of a presence in our media or in our conversations, right? Most people forgot about the anniversary already of the July 7th shootings.

Omar Suleiman: Now, for me, Alton Sterling was murdered in Louisiana.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: And the irony of it is that Alton Sterling was murdered about 50 to a hundred feet from my mother's grave.

George Mason: Oh, my word.

Omar Suleiman: Yeah. So right next to that gas station across the street, that's a graveyard in Baton Rouge. And my mom is buried there.

George Mason: And let's just pause to say, Alton Sterling's death gave rise to the march.

Omar Suleiman: Yes.

George Mason: In Dallas.

Omar Suleiman: Yes.

George Mason: Which was in reaction to not just Alton Sterling, but of course Philando Castile and Michael Brown and others that were ... That particular summer was-

Omar Suleiman: Oh, yeah.

George Mason: A violent summer. And so, this march was happening.

Omar Suleiman: Yes, it was.

George Mason: And the shooter ... To make no excuses for him, in his mind, this was retaliation for-

Omar Suleiman: Correct.

George Mason: These police events.

Omar Suleiman: Yeah. And so, Philando Castile happened in the same frame as Alton Sterling. And there was already a build-up of the Black Lives Matter movement here in Dallas and around the country. And so, I have never been to a march quite like that one where I saw the ... There was a despair in the eyes of black mothers at that march that I had not seen before.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And it hurt. And so, we marched. We spoke. We march. There was a lot of anger and it was raw emotion.

Omar Suleiman: Now, when we finished that march and we were walking away, people tend to forget that ... And it's intentionally framed that the shooter was sort of from the protest and almost as if he took it ... He got in the mood of the protest and decide, "Let me go ahead and shoot a few cops."

George Mason: Completely wrong.

Omar Suleiman: He was planning this before the protest.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And in fact, waited until the conclusion of the protest, and then started to target the cops.

Omar Suleiman: Now, when the shooting happened, we thought we were being targeted. Bullets are raining down. Everyone's hitting the ground.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: We can't tell who was shot and who wasn't. Bullets are raining down just all over. It seems like, you would think that there was seven people shooting at the time, right?

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: I mean, that's how it felt at least in the moment.

Omar Suleiman: I at that moment thought that I was about to be killed. It's my first time running away from bullets in that sense. And so, we're running, and I see Reverend Waters, Michael, and he looks for Elise, his wife. A bunch of us jump in a car and we go to his church that night.

George Mason: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Omar Suleiman: First we actually went to the Omni, where I understand the shooter went at some point too. So we tried to collect people in the Omni, in a ballroom.

Omar Suleiman: And then eventually we ended up at his church, the Tabernacle. And it was extremely emotional. We prayed. We cried. We then had to put together ... That's when we start reaching out to everyone to see what we're doing. And as it started to become known that this was a man that targeted the police officers and that this is what was happening.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: Immediately, we just went from running away from a shooting and we're planning a vigil and planning the press conference, the vigil in Thanks-Giving Square for just a few hours later.

George Mason: Wow.

Omar Suleiman: And so, that whole time is really a blur. But I think that we got closer as a result of that.

Omar Suleiman: And when President Obama and then President Bush and Vice President Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Ted Cruz ... You know, John Cornyn. All this coming together-

Omar Suleiman: And it was like, "What's happening here?" A lot of people don't know that that service that took place where the presidents attended, I was invited to pray. I mean, we were just told it was just the service for the fallen.

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And, you know, I think it was ... Then I got the program and I saw President Bush's name and President Obama's and like, what's happening here, right?

George Mason: Yeah, that's right.

Omar Suleiman: So it's interesting turn of events. And I definitely think that put Faith Forward Dallas literally front and center.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: And a lot of people then came to know us that way.

Omar Suleiman: Muslim ban happened. More terrorist attacks happened. And more mass shootings and Parkland happened. It's just, it's nonstop. Jordan Edwards happened. When Jordan Edwards was killed, that was ... I mean, it was like taking your own child. It felt like my own child had been killed. I mean, seeing in Jordan's dad, in Jordan's father, Odell, what I would, the way I look at my children, and knowing, just seeing what that family went through, it was like a piece of us was ripped away and just-

George Mason: And I think we should stop at least and say the police officer that killed him was convicted of murder. And that is a helpful act of justice. It's something we often did not see take place in these cases. But he was simply a kid in a car.

Omar Suleiman: Yeah.

George Mason: He was doing nothing.

Omar Suleiman: Yeah.

George Mason: Yeah.

Omar Suleiman: And the officer was given 15 years.

George Mason: Well, true.

Omar Suleiman: It's better than what happened before. I mean, it was a positive-

George Mason: But nonetheless, it was a minimum sentence-

Omar Suleiman: Oh, yeah.

George Mason: You might say.

Omar Suleiman: Yeah.

George Mason: Okay.

Omar Suleiman: And then both Botham Jean happens.

George Mason: Yes. Let's hold Botham Jean until we come back from the break.

Omar Suleiman: Sure.

George Mason: Okay. Thanks for ... We'll talk about Botham Jean and some other social justice matters we work on together. Okay?

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George Mason: Welcome back to Good God, with Omar Suleiman.

George Mason: And Omar, we were just talking about some of the horrific events that have taken place in Dallas over the past few years. We named Jordan Edwards and the shooting of the Dallas police officers and some of these things.

George Mason: But we also had this terrible occurrence of a young man from St. Lucia who was working here and was shot in his own apartment. His name was Botham Jean. And it was a shock to everyone, I think, that such a thing could happen. What are your reflections on the aftermath of that?

Omar Suleiman: Well, it's ongoing. And we saw the framing ... You know, one thing I ... Not to divert, but when Stephon Clark was murdered in Sacramento, I had the opportunity to go up there and do the preparation of his body and pray on him. And I wrote a paper ... I did a eulogy and I spoke about that. And I said one of the things that happens with young black men in America is that after they're killed, they are then assassinated again with the character assassinations that take place in the media. The framing of it immediately is somehow to cast the victim as well, not having been that deserving of life in the first place. So you shouldn't feel too bad because this was just a violent black man that was prone to be a thug anyway, so that assassination of character.

Omar Suleiman: And Botham's mom said that after his death, it was more painful to see the characterization of him in the media than it was to even get the call of his assassination in the first place.

George Mason: Interesting, yes.

Omar Suleiman: Because then, you know, what-

George Mason: Kill him twice.

Omar Suleiman: Kill him twice. Kill him while he's dead, right? They searched his apartment. They're trying to find anything to make him look like the aggressor. He was sitting on his couch in his apartment-

George Mason: Right.

Omar Suleiman: And an officer-

George Mason: Watching a football game.

Omar Suleiman: Watching a football game, when a white officer walks in his home and kills him. There is nothing, I mean, there's absolutely nothing that could, even in the wildest imagination, justify that.

Omar Suleiman: And so, I think that reflecting on that, it was important for you, and I think that there was a great reaction to what you did, which was you brought that message to a white church.

George Mason: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Omar Suleiman: And white churches unfortunately have been hesitant to speak about crimes against communities of color and other faith communities and marginalized communities in general.

Omar Suleiman: So it was important for you to sort of call that out, that complacency out, that, hey, look, this is the reality of what it's like to be a black man in America, that you can't even feel safe on your couch in your apartment, and-

George Mason: Well, this bound us together even more deeply, because I think of that taking place and you expressed tremendous gratitude for that moment in the sermon following that here at Wilshire.

George Mason: But I think I want to reflect upon that just a little bit and say that before becoming involved together and knowing one another and working together in the community, it would have been easier to not say anything. To have gotten to know one another and to have a proximity to pain and to stand beside one another over time and to listen to one another made it morally impossible to be a responsible person and a religious leader and not to speak.

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And I think it's really important to recognize that when we ask people to speak prophetically, to call for justice, to have human sympathy and to stand in the breach, that's not going to happen if you're never involved with anybody else's lives.

George Mason: And so, the generosity of you're being available to me and for our kind of community that we've developed as faith leaders has emboldened me and created more opportunity, I think, for us to make a difference, not only in our relationships but in our own communities.

Omar Suleiman: Yes. And I think when ... You know, I gave this invocation in Congress.

George Mason: Right, right.

Omar Suleiman: And every single time, every Muslim, every Muslim voice, every Palestinian voice in influential space in America can expect a character assassination after any time they're in a high-profile space. I mean, the idea is to eliminate our voices from those spaces.

Omar Suleiman: And sadly, because most people's worldviews are colored almost exclusively by what they read online, then that means bots and hate agendas, multimillion-dollar hate agendas. And algorithms can completely characterize, mischaracterize and color people's world in a way that keeps us split from one another.

Omar Suleiman: And when I gave that invocation, I was expecting, because every time I do anything high-profile there's a bunch of hate articles that come, but it was clearly a deploy strategy. I mean, this is clearly sort of built up for my next high-profile presence. And I mean, when you talk about 80 articles in one day, it's like, that's not organic. That was-

George Mason: No, that was prepared.

Omar Suleiman: Preplanned.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: Everything I've ever said in my life combed, mischaracterized, to portray me as a villain and to make people ... The idea is to make Muslims ... And again, and I'll say this, Palestinians are people that are pro-Palestinian. I mean, it was done with Angela Davis. Of all people, you know, had an award rescinded because of her support for the Palestinian people. And Marc Lamont Hill and other people. But it's to make them too toxic to touch.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: That you can't touch those people anymore.

Omar Suleiman: And Muslims that have been the subject of those character assassinations and different parts of the country, they expressed amazement at how Congresswoman Johnson, Congressman Allred immediately issued statements in my support. The local press, Faith Forward Dallas, and then you, in particular, your sermon ... I don't remember what you said except for "He's my friend. Omar is my friend." When I'm in a low point, that meant the world to me.

George Mason: Nice.

Omar Suleiman: To have you just say, "He's my friend," was a reminder that we're not going to let online hate groups poison our relationships onsite that we have built for all these years.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: Not Muslims and Jews.

George Mason: Nope.

Omar Suleiman: So Rabbi Nancy Kasten immediately reached out in love. Rabbi David Stern, Rabbi Andrew Paley, Rabbi Elana Zelony. I mean, they all reached out. We sat together. We talked through these things and we said, "No, we're not going to fall for this. We will not fall for this. We can't fall for this." And I told them, they wanted to do all sorts of things too, and I said, "Listen, I could care less about the online crazy world of social media where the Breitbarts of the world will thrive."

George Mason: Right, right.

Omar Suleiman: "Let those pools of slander and hate, let them persist in that. What's important to me is this."

George Mason: Good.

Omar Suleiman: And so-

George Mason: For this you've got-

Omar Suleiman: That's what meant the world-

George Mason: You've got it, and I know I have it from you as well.

Omar Suleiman: Absolutely.

George Mason: Now, I think this is something that people need to learn though, is something that doesn't just happen between faith leaders. If we're going to heal our land, if we're going to have the kind of country going forward that will live up to its ideals, practice religious liberty, include people of honest and earnest faith, who are coming from different places but who have not only the right but the responsibility speak in the public square ... If we're going to do that, then we have to defend one another, stand up for one another in moments like these. And not just ministers, not clergy, faith leaders, but also neighbors, people who live in our communities.

George Mason: One of the things I would say to people who say, "Well, how can we do something?" Well, talk to a Muslim. Talk to a Christian. Talk to a Jew. In moments like these, when things are happening to groups of people or to individuals you know, pick up the phone. Have a cup of coffee. Sit in the living room. Pray together. Reach out and talk with one another. Make awkward gesture, if it has to be awkward to begin with, but initiate some sense of relationship that will heal those bonds. And I think we can all do something about that.

Omar Suleiman: Oh, yeah. And look, I mean, I take the onus on myself that ... I mean, at the end of the day, if we are not doing enough to build, then we cannot be upset with those who destroy.

George Mason: Ah, good.

Omar Suleiman: Because they're going to do what they're going to do. Those agendas need polarization to thrive.

George Mason: Yes, right.

Omar Suleiman: If we're not combating polarization with our everyday being, with the way that our communities are taught to function, and leading by example with that, then we can't blame the online hate groups. We have to show what onsite love looks like and what it looks like to build that relationship.

Omar Suleiman: And so, we're going to have disagreements. As Faith Forward Dallas, our commitment to one another was come to the table in the fullness of yourself.

George Mason: Yes.

Omar Suleiman: Come with your full faith tradition. You will not be asked to compromise anything of your faith tradition. Now shine with your faith traditions. Show how your faith tradition looks like in the public square. Show how that makes you more committed to a better life, not just for every member of your faith community, but every member of your community. Show how your commitment to your tradition means a greater commitment to humanity. Show how you're willing to bring about harmony and love with that.

George Mason: Exactly. And I think this is something that both Faith Forward Dallas and Faith Commons, the organization that sponsors Good God, and incidentally I think you know that Rabbi Nancy Kasten has come on as our chief relationship officer, we say the same thing. And that is when we address things in the public square together, we want every person to draw upon their own religious tradition, not to water it down to just try to find the lowest common denominator, not to act like we're speaking at the United Nations where we're just talking about humanitarian concerns. We want to get at our common life through our particular faith tradition, so that we can actually learn from one another and learn to respect our faith traditions as well, because they become a kind of mirror to us of our own.

George Mason: Every time you speak about something from your faith tradition, I immediately go and reflect upon my own and ask, "How is that similar or different? How is it an echo of the one God's desire for us to understand in different ways?" And so, it's really a misconception I think a lot of people have that if you start engaging in these kinds of inter-faith or multi-faith settings that you necessarily have to sort of let go of some of the particular prism of your faith.

Omar Suleiman: Yes.

George Mason: No, that's really not what we're doing at all. We're holding our faith and we're sharing it in a way that is respectful. And we help to learn from each other.

Omar Suleiman: And I think that the most important thing there is if we could do that with our creed, if we can love each other despite having differences in how we conceive of our purpose of life, at least in a theological sense, if we can disagree across ... Love each other despite differences in religious scripture and creed, then why not with our political differences?

George Mason: Exactly.

Omar Suleiman: Why not with our social differences? Why not with everything else, right? If we can figure it out, then this polarized society can figure it out.

Omar Suleiman: And so, religious leaders ... And I did write, it actually ran concurrently after the invocation, I wrote my column in the Dallas Morning News about the attacks on me, and just started contextualizing why now and why is this really happening and what can we take from it. And I already had a column going out with the Dallas Morning News called Faith Leaders Can Teach Americans How To Talk To Each Other Again.

George Mason: Ah, interesting.

Omar Suleiman: They actually both went out on the same day together. And the idea was I don't just want us as clergy people, as religious leaders to become the religious left, i.e. the political left with collars.

George Mason: Yes. Right, right.

Omar Suleiman: Just as many on the religious right have just become the political right with collars and validating a lot of what ... No, we can teach people how to talk. We can teach people how to build relationship. And then if they build those relationships in accordance with issues that are important to all of us, that'll teach them how to be more civil with one another in pursuing justice and pursuing consensus on other issues as well.

George Mason: Good.

Omar Suleiman: So you build enough of a platform and a foundation that you can build on what you're already building and just keep on building and building and building. So I think that we can teach society. Even if they identify with no faith at all. We can teach an atheist and an agnostic and someone from any faith background how to talk and how to build with one another and love one another despite differences that they might have.

George Mason: I think it's an interesting point. I recently did an evening sponsored by Saint Michael and All Angels Episcopal Church. The subject was Christians and violence. And it was at Trinity Hall. It was what they call Pub Theology, you know. So anyway, I was doing this and I was addressing how Christians deal with violence and our history of that and where we should be in this respect. And afterward an atheist couple came up to me and said something like, "I didn't expect to agree with you." But we found common cause because though we start from different places, we want to end with how do we create a more just and peaceful society that is respectful and that honors the dignity of every human life, however it is conceived to have come about.

Omar Suleiman: Right.

George Mason: And so, Omar, thank you for your continuing work and your partnership in this.

Omar Suleiman: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

George Mason: Thank you for being on Good God. It's just a delight. Thank you. I'm grateful for you in all sorts of ways-

Omar Suleiman: Thank you. I appreciate you for all that you do.

George Mason: Thank you so much.

Omar Suleiman: Thank you for having me, and I hope to be back-

George Mason: We'll do it again.

Omar Suleiman: Many times in the future-

George Mason: Terrific.

Omar Suleiman: To talk about more. Thank you.

George Mason: All right, great.

Jim White: Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White. Guest coordination and social media by Upward Strategy Group.

Jim White: Good God, conversations with George Mason, is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2019 by Faith Commons.


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