Episode 84: Amy Butler on women in ministry
Amy Butler was the first female pastor of Riverside Church: the historic Protestant cathedral built by the Rockefellers in New York's Upper West Side. She is on Good God to talk about her time there--the good and the bad--and how it all came to an end. She also offers insights on being a woman in a male dominated role, and how we can do better for women in ministry.
Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.
George Mason: She broke the glass ceiling, we said, when she went to be the senior minister of the Riverside Church in New York City, and then the glass cut her on the way down. Well, we're going to talk to the Reverend Amy Butler about her rise and fall and her rising again after being the minister of that great church in New York. Stay tuned for Good God.
George Mason: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to the program today my dear friend, the Reverend Amy Butler. Amy.
Amy Butler: Hey, George. How are you?
George Mason: Glad to have you.
Amy Butler: Glad to be here.
George Mason: So good to visit, and it's been a few months now since we've seen each other in person, and a lot's happened in the last few months.
Amy Butler: That's right.
George Mason: My goodness. So you were, the last time we were together in person, the senior minister of the Riverside Church in New York City, and you had been for five years.
Amy Butler: Five years. Can you believe it? I can't.
George Mason: It seemed like 50 years at times, didn't it?
Amy Butler: It did.
George Mason: I mean, well, but now it's no more.
Amy Butler: Right.
George Mason: So since that time you've been reeling a bit, because your relationship to Riverside, how should we say this, unceremoniously ceased.
Amy Butler: That's a beautiful way to say it, George. You sound like a preacher.
George Mason: Yeah. Or a politician. But I think everybody wants to know what happened. So I know that you are under some constraints about what you can say, but be as unconstrained as you can so that people can understand a little more, because what some have heard or read in the media, as we know, is quite distorted. And so here's your moment. Tell us what you can.
Amy Butler: You know, George, I always imagined that I would be pursued by the paparazzi, but not for this. So yeah, it's been a wild ride. So as you know, my contract was coming up for renewal and things were going really well.
George Mason: Okay. Let's just stop there and say, before we go any further, a lot of people are already thinking, "Wait a minute, your contract? You were the pastor of a church and you had a contract?
Amy Butler: Right.
George Mason: Which actually only goes to speak to the unique culture of the Riverside Church.
Amy Butler: Right.
George Mason: Which in many ways functions more like a religious nonprofit than what most people understand as a church.
Amy Butler: Right.
George Mason: It's kind of different, isn't it?
Amy Butler: That's a great point. It's important to remember this is like a $15 million annual budget, almost 200 employees. It's a large corporation with a $150 million endowment, and you know, my job was not just to be the resident theologian and preacher, but to be the head of the corporation. So it was a huge job, and as you know, and as all of us know, Riverside had struggled for some time, and over these last five years, I had the incredible opportunity to bring on this amazing staff and to try the experiment of building beloved community in this beautiful historic church. And you and I talked from the very beginning about what a high risk this was. High risk, high reward, and as you know, I'm not afraid of failure, and I like high risk situations, and I thought, "You know, the church in America needs to be shaken up. Like, if anybody could do it, maybe Riverside could. Let's give it a shot."
George Mason: Right.
Amy Butler: And things were going really, really well. And when the church council made the decision not to renew my contract, I was surprised and disappointed, and I had anticipated spending the next five years hopefully shifting the institution more toward the modern conversation about what and who the church can be in the world. But I have to say, my five years at Riverside were amazing. I learned so much. I had the most amazing experiences.
George Mason: You met some amazing people too, didn't you?
Amy Butler: I did.
George Mason: Yes.
Amy Butler: I met some amazing people, and I had the opportunity to help build this beloved community that is just so beautiful. And you got to watch from the sidelines, and came to New York often to give me a strict talking to about taking care of myself, and it really was the hardest work I've ever done in my life, and I'm really proud of the work that my colleagues and I did there over these five years, and pretty darn proud that I made it five years.
George Mason: Right. Right. Well, and I think for many people when you went, I think they would have even been surprised that you made it five years, because Riverside's history with pastors in recent times has not been a proud one. It's been challenging and difficult. Everyone who's watching or listening to this program doesn't probably know Riverside and its history, but we should probably spend a few moments filling them in and helping them understand that you really went to a church that has a reputation in the progressive wing of Christianity as being the American cathedral, in a sense. It's a classic Protestant church, the tallest Protestant church in America-
Amy Butler: That's right.
George Mason: ... and your office way up in the nosebleed, and a beautiful picture of that highly educated sector of the Upper West Side, with Columbia, and Union Seminary, and Jewish Theological, and all the schools right there, and then the Hudson River on the other side, a beautiful location. Many people would probably remember that it was built by John D. Rockefeller who enlisted Harry Emerson Fosdick, the most famous or infamous preacher in America at the time. And that was a, what, 30 year pastorate for him, wasn't it?
Amy Butler: Right. Right.
George Mason: Yeah. So it had this rich history and tradition, and all through the years it was really a place where people came from around the world, and key leaders and figures like Martin Luther King Jr., and Desmond Tutu, and people like that through the years. So here you are, entering into this space as the first woman to be there, and in many ways people said, "Whoa, Amy Butler just broke the glass ceiling." But the shards cut you back.
Amy Butler: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
George Mason: So what reflections do you have about that sense of how you both arrived and then experienced again what women so frequently do in high level positions of leadership institutionally?
Amy Butler: That's such a great question, because I think one of my biggest surprises after I came to Riverside was I thought, "Okay, I have worked so hard. I'm very good at what I do. I have an opportunity here to come and pastor this amazing church." And the reason I came is because I could see that they had this amazing legacy, but they were longing to learn again what it meant to beloved community, to be the church. And I think the gospel has resonance for the modern conversation, and that drew me there even despite all of what we know about Riverside and the way they manage pastors. One of the things I heard when I first came was, "Either you're for the church or for the pastor."
George Mason: Wow.
Amy Butler: And that was an ideology that I had tried to dismantle, but it had been there since Rockefeller and Fosdick.
George Mason: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Butler: They separated their areas of responsibility, and that just sort of became ingrained in the DNA, and that does not do well for collaborative work together.
George Mason: No. Right.
Amy Butler: And so that was something that I really, really pushed against. But one of the things that really surprised me is this. I thought, "Okay, here I am. First woman, tallest church in America, Protestant cathedral. Thank goodness all the sexism is done."
George Mason: Aha. Yes.
Amy Butler: It's worse. It's worse in the bigger places, in the more public places, in the more storied institutions.
George Mason: Right.
Amy Butler: We saw it play out in the last presidential election, and we're seeing it now. It's hard to be a woman in the public sphere. You are held to a different standard. You experience sexism constantly. I can't even tell you how many times I was kicked out of the nave when I went in there to prepare on a Saturday or something by the security guard who didn't know who I was.
George Mason: Oh my goodness.
Amy Butler: So many times. So many times.
George Mason: That's so interesting.
Amy Butler: So many times, and that's just a funny story, but it's sort of emblematic-
George Mason: "We have this homeless woman wandering around in the sanctuary of Riverside on a Saturday."
Amy Butler: Yes. Yeah. That happened regularly. At least once a week, is that a new security team member wouldn't know who I was, and yeah.
George Mason: Yeah.
Amy Butler: So yeah, it was constant and, and it really started coming to the fore in the past couple of years, as we're watching this administration and the way that women are publicly being dismissed and treated in ways that are unacceptable. And then watching the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, and seeing women sobbing in the pews, and thinking to myself, "The church is not speaking on this issue. In fact, the church is complicit."
George Mason: Right.
Amy Butler: And by "church" I mean like "the church."
George Mason: "The church."
Amy Butler: Yeah.
George Mason: Right. So here we have a church that prides itself in being on the cutting edge of inclusivity, diversity, these sorts of things. It is a congregation, when people look out on a Sunday morning, what they will see a truly racially and ethnically diverse congregation, not something that is commonly seen in churches on a Sunday morning in America. So there's at least the image of, "Riverside gets it," right? But then behind the scenes there is still this sense of the inability to treat women in high level leadership in the same way that they might treat men. What do you make of where that comes from? That we still haven't progressed to the point where we don't make gender such a factor in our evaluation of leadership?
Amy Butler: Yeah. That's a great question, and I'm guilty of this too. Like, I have not spoken out as much as I should have about the evil of misogyny, and how it pervades our society, but it's just in the water. It's in the water, and we accept it. And even me, as a woman in a man's profession, I just always knew I was going to have to work harder. I was going to try. "I have to try harder, do better," and I just accepted it and did not call it out as much as I could have. And when the time came for me to call it out and pay price, all I could think about was my daughter who's 22 years old. And I thought, "It has to be better for her. We have to do better." And this issue, like so many others, where is the church?
George Mason: Yeah.
Amy Butler: The church should be out front. And you and I have taken church history, so we know this is steeped in our institution and in our holy texts, even, and it's wrong, George, so wrong.
George Mason: Yeah. Well, when we come back from the break, I want us to talk a little more about the unique challenges that women face in dealing with unwanted advances and comments and harassment, and things of that nature. Because if we're going to do anything together in this program to help in redressing this, those who are listening need to, I think, learn those obvious and sometimes subtle things that happen that just have to stop, and how we can build better relationships. So let's take a break and we'll come back in a moment.
Amy Butler: Okay.
George Mason: The Good God program is a project of Faith Commons, a nonprofit organization that I founded in 2018 to promote the common good. Think of a commons on a campus, and how you can bring all your faith and people from all corners of the campus together. Think of the city that way. Think of the country that way. Faith Commons aims to bring people together to promote greater understanding and peace throughout our communities. You can find more information about it at faithcommons.org.
George Mason: We're back with Amy Butler, and Amy, we were talking before the break about how women in positions of leadership in the church have to endure things that men don't. This is sometimes hard, I think, for many people to recognize, because it seems even women have gotten so used to deflecting unwanted comments, dealing with unwanted advances, recognizing that this is just something they have to negotiate all the time in their life, so why does a woman pastor need to complain about these sorts of things, right? So it always sort of comes back to, you're responsible to deal with this instead of ... Men need to be responsible for their behavior, first of all. Let's actually go straight to the root cause and say, "Why is that okay?" Whether it's in the church or anywhere, right? So what is uniquely true, say, for you as a senior minister that probably I don't have to deal with as a man who is a senior minister also. What would you say?
Amy Butler: Well, I don't know. I will add too that I've experienced this from both men and women.
George Mason: Oh, well okay. Thank you.
Amy Butler: And I'm sure you have too. It's just what happens when you're in a role of leadership. I remember early in my first pastorate at Calvary, there was a man in the church who was behaving inappropriately, and I asked the chair of the board of trustees, "Can you please come with me and sit down with this gentleman and help me explain to him why his behavior is unacceptable?" And the chair of the board did, and he was an older white gentlemen as well, and when we left the meeting, he said to me, "Well, isn't that nice? He got all dressed up for this meeting and he even wore aftershave. That's so sweet." And I thought-
George Mason: Oh my goodness.
Amy Butler: You know?
George Mason: Yeah.
Amy Butler: So there seems to be a lack of connection, and I think there are a lot of women who, like me, say, "This isn't okay. This isn't okay. This isn't okay." And then we get called complainers or whatever, and we need advocates. We need people who have power and privilege to say, "This is unacceptable. It will not be tolerated here in this place."
George Mason: So when somebody is listening to this, and we're talking about sexual harassment, what kinds of things are we talking about? Let's be more specific.
Amy Butler: Well, you can mention things like, "You look really sexy today," or, "I couldn't concentrate on the sermon because you look so ..." Whatever. There are those things, but for me, the more problematic things were being in a meeting, and presenting an idea or a plan, and having it shot down, and then having a man say the same thing and everybody thinking it's great. Or being talked over, or being talked at, or being dismissed. How many times have I been in a meeting when I'd get to the end of the meeting and the person on the other side says, "So are you the senior minister?"
George Mason: Right. Right.
Amy Butler: Those things are maddening to me.
George Mason: So we have grades here. I mean, what you've just talked about there is just a lack of awareness that the role you're in and the position you're in deserves the same kind of respect that someone would have if a man were occupying that position. But then you ratchet that up to the level of inappropriate comments sexually, or inappropriate touching, or ways in which people think that they can be assertive, aggressive, and always there's sort of this, "Oh, you took that wrong," you know? Or, "I was just being nice." Or, "Oh, I guess I can't say anything anymore because now everybody's just so sensitive."
Amy Butler: Right.
George Mason: So what are the rules, Amy?
Amy Butler: Right. So this is such a great question, because I did these things at Riverside called The Pastor's Table, where I would bring like 10 congregants to my house.
George Mason: I was there for one of those.
Amy Butler: You were. Cool, right?
George Mason: Yeah.
Amy Butler: And this exact thing came up from one of the men at the table. Poor guy. He said, "I just feel like I can't say anything because of ..." Yeah. And one by one around the table, each woman told a brief story. "When I was in sixth grade, my soccer coach touched me inappropriately." "When I was ... My youth group pastor." Like, it was one right after the other. It was chilling.
George Mason: Right.
Amy Butler: And at the end of this, there were two men there. Poor guys. They were just silent, and one of the women said, "Here's the rule. If you wouldn't say it or do it to your mother or your sister, don't say it or do it."
George Mason: Oh, there it is. Okay. There's the rule. Good. Okay.
Amy Butler: Pretty easy.
George Mason: Pretty easy. So I think men know when they are being appropriate and inappropriate, right? I think they know when they have romantic or sexual intentions, and they're not personally mystified by this, but they live in the gray zone of deniability, right? So that's where we have to be clear with ourselves and hold ourselves accountable for that, right?
Amy Butler: Listen, I don't know what it's like to be a man, but it sounds pretty scary to me.
George Mason: Well, all right. So I think we've sort of broached this subject, but there are a lot of young women who are being called into ministry today, and they saw you as this icon of hope, right? That, "She made it." Right?
Amy Butler: Yeah.
George Mason: And I know you well enough to say your hopes for women are not dashed because of this experience, and you still believe in the church, and you still want to encourage women in ministry and all of that. But we have more than half of seminarians these days are women, and increasingly they are not content to say, "Oh, I just want to be a children's minister." Or, "Oh, I'll be an associate, but I don't know if if I could lead a church."
George Mason: I mean, the women I see coming out of school now, they're clear about who they are and their call more than ever before. Maybe not always as clear as men are still, because we're still in that transition period. But what do churches need to learn about how to listen to women, about how to respect and give credit to women's voices. For instance, I know that when women preach, it often sounds different to the ear of people who have been in the pew for 50 years listening only to men preach, right? And there's work to be done there, right? There's deference to be paid. Are there things that you would say to the church that always seems to feel like it's not ready yet, not ready yet, not ready yet? What do you want to tell search committees and churches about women in ministry?
Amy Butler: Well, George, you've been a leader on this front. Thank you for your work to open doors for women, particularly in Baptist life. My daughter, Hannah, always says to me that you cannot be what you cannot see, and so churches need to get women in their pulpits and up front. And I was actually talking to a colleague the other day who was trying to decide who to hire. There were two candidates for a youth position, a woman and a man, and they're both good, and whatever, whatever. It's important to get women up there for the little girls in your pews-
George Mason: Oh, yes.
Amy Butler: ... to look up front and see a woman pastor. I mean, that's what the church needs to do. Get those women up there and change the way future generations think about pastoral leadership.
George Mason: It's absolutely right. I remember a young woman who grew up in our church, and I baptized her, and she went off to college and then Harvard Divinity School, and you know Anne Jernberg Scalfaro. She eventually became a resident here and she's a pastor in Denver now, but Anne told me, as far as we thought growing up when she was here, that we had addressed these things, when I talked to her about becoming a pastor, she said, "It never entered my imagination that I could do that because I never saw women preaching. I had male pastors all these years."
George Mason: And today she tells me a story of a young child in her church, who there was a question of a man being a minister at the church, and this, I think, little girl said, "Mommy, can men be pastors?" Well, of course that's where we want to go, right? For children to have that sort of open sense, that whatever God calls them to be or to do, they can answer that call, and that the church will gratify that and will enable it and see it as normal, not exceptional.
Amy Butler: Sometimes I feel almost in despair about how the church has put limits on the expansiveness of the gospel, and our ability to be in conversation with the world about goodness, and healing, and hope, and for what reason have we done this for hundreds of thousands of years, said no instead of saying yes to everything that God imagines for the world? It's heartbreaking and it's wrong.
George Mason: Well, and then people go back to scripture and say, "Well, it's there. All we're doing is following the scriptural text." And what I want to do is pull my hair out and say, "Yes, I understand the way you're reading that, but can't you see that even scripture is moving, is trying to get us beyond the culture in which it was written and keeps breaking boundaries? Why did you think that it stopped when the last word of scripture was written? I mean, is the spirit not at work in the world still, calling us to more?" And this seems to be a clear distinction between the more traditionalist and the progressive version of Christianity, and all of our religions, right?
Amy Butler: But at what point did we reduce religion to a list of rules and punishments? How scarce, and limited, and wrong that is, when good religion is really about all that God imagined and hopes for our lives and our communities and our world. Why are we so scared of that?
George Mason: Right. Right.
Amy Butler: I don't know.
George Mason: I mean, isn't faith, to pick up on what you're saying, isn't it supposed to give us an imagination of God's dream for the world that we can then live into? And is God's dream for the world really as a limiting to gender roles as we have experienced in all these generations of church life? I find that to be utterly implausible, and thank you for being part of the answer to that-
Amy Butler: Thank you.
George Mason: ... for us being ... I think that's part of the joy of being colleagues with you, Amy, is that each of us has our role to play, right, in all of this, and the faithfulness we have toward each other in this partnership and collegiality over time is one of the joys of life in ministry with you. I regret deeply the way things turned out in the end at Riverside for you, but I celebrate greatly those five years of your being a beacon of hope way beyond Riverside, but a voice of encouragement to so many people, not only about women in ministry, but about the dream of God for the world.
Amy Butler: Thank you, George. Thanks. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have been at Riverside. I don't regret going, and I think I wouldn't change one single thing. I think I emerged on the other side with a firm conviction of who I am and what I believe in that means more to me now than it did before, and I'm grateful.
George Mason: Great. Well, we have more to discuss in another episode, so let's pause there and we'll come back another time.
Amy Butler: Okay.
George Mason: Thank you.
Jim White: Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White. Guest coordination and social media by Upward Strategy Group. Good God: Conversations With George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2019 by Faith Commons.