Episode 86: Justin Lee on talking about LGBTQ in the church

Do you ever feel torn between your commitment to truth and your desire to love people who are different from you, especially maybe those who are gay in your family or friends or in your church? Justin Lee has written a book called Torn and he'll be talking about how to move in a more loving direction, that doesn't sacrifice truth.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason: Do you ever feel torn between your commitment to truth and your desire to love people who are different from you, especially maybe those who are gay in your family or friends or in your church. Justin Lee has written a book called Torn and he'll be talking with us about how to move in a more loving direction, that doesn't sacrifice truth. Stay tuned for Good God.

George Mason: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm pleased to welcome to the program today, Justin Lee. Justin, we're glad to have you with us.

Justin Lee: Thanks for having me.

George Mason: Justin is the Executive Director of Nuance Ministries and for the past two decades, he has been a leading voice in helping Christians wrestle with how to treat LGBTQ persons as persons and helping churches and those who are struggling with their sexual identity, their sexual orientation, and including, increasingly, gender identity, matters to be in relationship with one another and find that place of identity in Christ to begin with and then beyond in their social relationships too. So thank you so much for being with us Justin.

Justin Lee: I'm thrilled to be here.

George Mason: And there's a lot to talk about.

Justin Lee: There is always.

George Mason: So to begin with, I should say that you wrote a really important book that has helped people in our church and help scores of people across the country. The U.S. version is called "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate" as if those are two different things-

Justin Lee: Exactly.

George Mason: -Right? And now you've written another book that is moving increasingly in the direction that you're taking, which is Talking Across the Divide, right? That is to say, how do we have difficult conversations about matters that have typically divided us, including this one?

Justin Lee: Right.

George Mason: So I know you've just been to Baylor University, which is wrestling with this question themselves. What does a Christian university do when it has a historic position about a marriage being between a man and a woman only and that sort of thing. And then you have an enormous number of LGBTQ students. And there's a hospitality matter and fairness. And then you're going to be speaking to our church as well. So what have you been learning yourself about this experience as you've been doing this work?

Justin Lee: Oh boy, that's a big question. Well, I think one of the... I've been doing this work in one form or another for over 20 years now.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: And one of the things that I've really learned is the need for us to have empathy for one another.

George Mason: Okay.

Justin Lee: As Christians, I think as human beings, we live in a time where our culture is so polarized. So us versus them, whether you're talking about politics, social issues, theological issues, on all sides of whatever the issue is, we often feel like I need to know what my position is, why my position is what it is, and then draw the line in the sand and make sure I know who my enemies are, so that I don't ever listen to them and make sure to either win them over to my side or vanquish them. And I don't think that's the way of Jesus.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: Because I believe that God loves even the people who are my cultural opponents. The people who disagree with me on things. And often as I get to know people, I find out that even though we may disagree on some things, we may be starting from similar places, we may have some shared values there. There may be issues that we can work through where we find, "Hey, we still disagree on this piece, but on this other piece we can work together because we have a shared goal here." Or, "I didn't know this thing that you've just told me and you didn't know this thing that I know and now that we know this, we may actually be closer together than we thought we were."

George Mason: So I think it's interesting that in evangelical Christian culture, the language of truths seems to be right at the top of our values. And each of us has spent time in the evangelical culture and understands that can become a kind of club to use against people who disagree with you, when in fact in your language of saying we should be emphasizing empathy, that's moving more toward the language of love as the chief virtue. And it does seem that the Apostle Paul had something to say about that. And we're not paying attention to that very thing, isn't it?

Justin Lee: Well, I say in Torn that I don't think that truth and love should be in any way viewed as opposing one another. I think they go together and it's interesting you bring up Paul because I look at how Paul dealt with an issue in Athens where there was a significant theological disagreement that he had with the Athenians. They were worshiping all these gods that Paul would have said are false gods. They had all these different altars. And of course Paul would say, "Well, there's only one true God." And yet we don't see Paul go into Athens and start berating these people and say, "How dare you worship these false gods?" He may have thought it, but he didn't say it. Instead, he says, "I see that you are a deeply religious people and I've paid enough attention to your culture to notice that you have an altar to an unknown god because you don't want to leave anybody out.

Justin Lee: "So let me tell you about this God I know who was unknown to you." And that's his way of beginning this conversation. It is an empathetic approach where he's getting to know where they are, what matters to them. He recognizes... As much as he disagrees with their religious practice, he recognizes that there is something good underlying it. They're religious people, they care about getting things right. I wish that we could do that kind of thing more often. And when I have conversations with folks about the LGBTQ conversation in the church, I often find people on both sides of whatever the particular conversation is have good reasons why they're on the side, that they are, they want to love people well, they want to make sure that we value truth and adhere to scripture, which I also value.

Justin Lee: They want to make sure that God is honored, that we as a church continue to be salty in a culture that doesn't always understand all these things that are all good things. And yet we end up on opposite sides and treat each other sometimes as enemies. And I don't think when I talk about this understanding each other, I don't at all mean that I think that everybody is right or that I think that it doesn't matter what your position is because it's... Because everybody has good intentions. You know what they say about the road to hell.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: But I do think that even while taking a position where I say, "I think there's a right answer and a wrong answer to this question, and I think that I have the right answer and you have the wrong answer." I can still say, "But I believe that you're sincere. I believe that you have good intentions. I believe that you and I share some values. I believe that God loves you and I love you. And rather than just treating you as my enemy, I want to sit down and get to know you, learn more about why you have the position you do. And maybe as we talk to one another and seek God together, we can progress together as a church, as friends, as brothers in Christ."

George Mason: All right but this gets to the nature of Christian truth that I think is important here because when we talk about truth as Christians, we are not talking just about things that we believe, issues that we have a position on that we think should be settled, whether others agree or disagree, we're talking about a Christian commitment to truth that is connected to Jesus Christ who says of himself that he is the truth. Now, if that's true, then it's not about propositions or ideas. We're talking about a nature of truth that is highly relational-

Justin Lee: Yes.

George Mason: -personal, about persons in other words. And if that's true, is there anyone who has finished knowing anyone yet so that I can't say that I know my wife for instance, of 40 years in any final way or that she knows me, we are still discovering things about each other. There is an infinite mystery of personhood, a personal truth that should open us up to understanding that we're not finished learning together. And one of my problems with this issue is that it is made an issue.

Justin Lee: Yeah.

George Mason: When it is always deeply connected to persons. And I know this is part of your work in Talking Across The Divide is to get us more toward this human aspect of the matter and not to make it about issues as much.

Justin Lee: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. As a gay man myself, I've found so many times in my life that when I've come out as gay to my fellow Christians, their immediate response has been not to ask about my journey, get to know my story, express compassion for ways in which I may have been treated by the church, but rather to tell me what their position is on the supposed issue of homosexuality or to tell me their stance on same sex marriage or some legal debate about gay folks. And exactly as you say, I am a person and not an issue. And I think the same thing is true on many things that we think of as issues that ultimately they're about real people's lives. And Jesus didn't say that Christians would be known by our positions on issues. Jesus said we would be known by our love.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: And so I think that getting issues right and doctrines right is important. But I think how we love people is more important.

George Mason: Well, that's right. And I think Michael Polanyi wrote this book called Personal Knowledge. He's a philosopher and epistemologist and he's talking about how this difference of knowing the truth, that we claim religiously versus scientifically is a false antithesis, right? Because even scientifically he says all knowledge begins with a personal sense of apprehension of data. There is an empirical sense of I think this might be so based upon experience. And then there was a testing process that moves. So there's a kind of, just as your fingers when you touch, give you a tactile response and it sends a signal to your brain to begin to make sense of what you've touched. All knowledge has a personal sense about it that is first not last. And if we start there, then the end of that is that we will treat knowledge and truth as a... We'll use a theological term here. An eschatological category, right?

George Mason: That is to say all knowledge is provisional now. So can we learn more? Can we understand better? And I think this is one of the great struggles that I have had as... In our church we wrestled with this. There is this sense that when the Canon was closed, all Christian knowledge ended and is simply been delivered. And it is up to us to adopt only that which is between the leather of the King James version or some such thing. But if we follow a living God and a Christ who was raised from the dead, who is calling us forward and sending us a spirit who says, "I will lead you into more truth." How do we wrestle with that?

Justin Lee: Yeah, well, I mean, my goodness, we need to have the humility that, the approach that you're suggesting about that sort of human piece of acquiring knowledge, we need to have the humility to recognize that, while I believe there are absolute truths in the world... Tony Campolo once said something along the lines of, even if we have infallible scriptures, none of us are infallible interpreters.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: All of us need to have enough humility to recognize that we may be wrong about things that we feel certain about. And that doesn't mean that we go through life just thinking, I can't possibly ever know anything, but we have to be open to learning new things and to finding out that we're wrong.

George Mason: My goodness, how many things can I think about that I was wrong about before and I've changed my mind about it, right?

Justin Lee: Oh yeah. I am embarrassed at the things that I was 100% certain about that I was wrong about.

George Mason: Right.

Justin Lee: And people sometimes ask me, because my affirming, LGBTQ affirming theological view is right now the minority view is still in the global church. People will always ask me, "Well, are you certain of your view?" And my answer is something along the lines of, "Well I'm as certain as I can be." I don't live with doubt about my view, but-

George Mason: Hold that thought we're going to take a break.

Justin Lee: Okay.

George Mason: Because I want to come back to that point because a lot of people want to know about whether we're simply doing to them what they have done to us if we hold this point of view, right. So let's be right back.

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George Mason: We're back with Justin Lee and Justin we were talking just before the break and you were saying that sometimes people ask you, "Are you sure about your position?" And sometimes people have asked me that too, as if there is some eternal consequence to my being wrong about this, right. And I have said to people obviously until we all get to the end of days, there's no way for us to know the answer to that question, but I would sure rather be on the side of love and mercy and take my chances with God at that time than to have taken a position to exclude and to call people who are children of God into such question that they go through anguish in their life and are unable to fulfill the fullness of their humanity. So what do you say to people when they ask you that question?

Justin Lee: Well, I mean I think you've just given a great answer. People ask if I feel sure and I say, "Yes, I feel sure." I have learned well enough not to ever claim that anything that I think I know is absolutely for certain because I know I'm fallible, but I'm as certain of this as I think I am of anything. I've seen the negative impact of the theology that I used to hold on people and I've seen the positive impact of an affirming theology on folks. And that for me is really compelling evidence.

George Mason: Right. So someone has said something to the effect of if your religious position is harmful to people.

Justin Lee: Yeah.

George Mason: Then you might consider giving up your religious position because Jesus actually, and the whole witness of scripture is calling you to love your neighbor. And the whole project of redemption is one of a redeeming all humanity. So it is something that should throw us back on ourselves, shouldn't it? If we have that kind of position.

Justin Lee: Yeah, absolutely. There's this great passage in Romans 13:8-10, where Paul says, "Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one another."

George Mason: Right.

Justin Lee: "For those who love others have fulfilled the law." And Paul goes through all these different commandments that are among the 10 commandments and says "These and whatever other commandment there may be are summed up in this one rule, love your neighbor as yourself." And Paul's talking about relationships between human beings. So he focuses on love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, Jesus says, the two great commandments are love your neighbor and love your God.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: But I-

George Mason: Are they really two, or is it that one?

Justin Lee: Oh, well, exactly, whatsoever you did for the least of these, right?

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: I believe that... And I don't say this lightly because I don't mean this to sound like some kind of hand-waving and to just justify whatever. I grew up Southern Baptist, I take my theology very seriously and I take my Bible very seriously. But I do think at the end of the day, everything God calls us to is ultimately a way of loving God and neighbor together. And if we find that something that we're doing is feeling more like the, the Pharisees kind of legalism that's somehow getting in the way of loving people, then we need to, as you said, rethink: is my position here really what God's calling me to or have I misunderstood? And I think that's a question the church has to ask here. And that's part of what in Torn, that's part of what I'm trying to get at.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: I think Christians can disagree with my theological position on marriage and still be loving.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: But we need to make sure that whatever we're doing, that it's loving. And I think often that's not how it's coming across.

George Mason: So those who disagree on this matter sometimes have a hard time believing that people who hold the view that you and I hold on this matter, which is, just to summarize, is that whatever applies to one human being applies to all regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity in terms of our spiritual responsibility and our legal provisions and the way the church treats us. Okay. So if I could summarize quickly, all right. But there's a worry that they are considered haters if they disagree. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from people, "I love gay people. I have..." And it's, "I have black friends, I have gay friends." And those sorts of things and they genuinely mean that and I-

Justin Lee: Absolutely.

George Mason: -genuinely trust that they do feel that way. They feel somehow that if they do not have the so called "enlightened view," that accommodates to this sense of new knowledge out there, that they are being called reactionary. That a view that was something consistent for a couple of thousand years generally in the church, now suddenly they're on the side of the haters and they're being... They're associated with people who are bigots and who are ready to pick up stones. They don't want to feel that way. And I've found that some people do jump to that conclusion about their point of view. And they do it because this is not just a theoretical disagreement. Gay people's lives are at stake in the way we handle this matter.

George Mason: Actual human beings are being told that at the very core of who they are, they are not simply behaving badly, they are bad. And they feel that tension and they can't live with that tension easily. So what do you say to gay Christians who feel this real deep woundedness when someone says, "I'm welcoming, but I'm not affirming. I am... I love you, but I simply do not agree with your..." And usually the language is lifestyle or something like that, we talked about language, right?

Justin Lee: Yeah.

George Mason: But honestly how do we help gay Christians come to a place of honor and respect and engage when they're wounded and hurt?

Justin Lee: Well, I always talk with my fellow gay and LGBTQ Christians about my experience that I for many years opposed same sex marriage, believed that being gay was a choice before recognizing that I was gay. There are lots of views that I am embarrassed that I held.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: I know that at the time I held those views, I was not being hateful or homophobic. And so I never accuse anyone of being hateful or homophobic for holding those positions. And I encourage others not to do that. Because I don't think that helps us in dialogue. But I do say to those folks who hold those views, "If you have come to a theological conclusion based on your understanding of scripture, and it differs from my conclusion, that's one thing." But if you want to be loving, and I really think that most Christians do, it takes more than just saying, I want to be loving, I want to welcome you. It takes moving beyond a position of having sympathy to a position of having empathy. And that requires doing more than just saying, "I love you and I want you to feel welcome and I'm not going to hate on you."

Justin Lee: It requires really investing time in listening to people's stories, understanding their journeys and thinking deeply about things like if you believe that God has called me to lifelong celibacy because I'm gay, what does that mean? Because if you think that's just a question of a sexual abstinence, then you haven't really taken the time to think about what would it mean for you if you had to spend the rest of your life alone.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: Your primary concern wouldn't be about sex. It would be about companionship and intimacy and who's going to help care for me if I get sick one day and I can't care for myself and all of these things. And often folks, while they intend to be loving, they haven't thought through all of that. And that's all part of that empathy,

George Mason: Right. So it reminds me of Frederick Buechner's definition of compassion, which is that somehow fatal experience of living inside someone else's skin, right? Where you really lose your sense of self and you begin to think and feel, what would it be like to be this other person? And I think that's the move from sympathy to empathy that you're talking about. Now this... You mentioned this notion of celibacy. I think most Christians think celibacy is the same as sexual abstinence. And really it's a broader statement about just being single, which also means well what is the end result of what's possible for a gay Christian in the church? And for some, the answer to that would be, we have come to recognize that this may not be a choice that for whatever reasons, either the randomness of nature or the gift of God, some people are same sex oriented.

Justin Lee: Right.

George Mason: And I see more and more people recognizing that.

Justin Lee: Yeah.

George Mason: I think that there is more and more acknowledgement that that is so. And there's not an attempt to try to tell someone else about their experience. But I do think that... Then there's the separation between who you are and what you do. And then we move into the category of you can be accepted but you have to behave in certain ways that are not consistent with how straight people are expected to behave. This is partly what years ago you termed side A side B Christians on the matter. And even that's beginning to break down, you and I were talking about, but what do you say to people who say, "It's fine for you to be same-sex oriented, but it's clear that you have a limitation that straight people don't have. It must be your cross to bear for Christ to live in a way that is unlike any other Christian."

Justin Lee: Yeah. Well, I think two big things. One is, I don't think ultimately that that's... I don't think ultimately that's healthy. I think some people are called to celibacy, but I think to try to enforce celibacy on folks who are not called to it... I think of most straight Christians, if they thought about it, would have to be honest that if the church as a whole enforced celibacy on all people, we'd have very few people who would be willing to stay in the church.

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: And I think in the Bible we see that one of the things that early Christians were very concerned about, that Jesus was concerned about was that there not be tremendous burdens keeping people from coming to Christ. And I think that's a tremendous burden.

George Mason: Very true.

Justin Lee: Now, that said, I understand that there are folks who believe that the Bible is clear on this. And while I disagree with them, I say, well, okay, if we were to take that as a given, we need to do more than just say, "Here's what you can't do. Don't get married, don't have sex."

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: My friend Eve Tushnet, who's gay and Catholic and celibate, says that the church needs to offer more than, what she calls a vocation of no. She says you can't have a vocation of not gay marrying and not having sex.

George Mason: That's good. That's great.

Justin Lee: And so it's important to really ask the question, not just what do you think I shouldn't do?

George Mason: Yes.

Justin Lee: But let's talk together about what would it look like for me to flourish as a Christian in the church, in this culture, in this world, in a way that would be healthy and honoring to God. And if you think that that can't include marriage, then what can it include? Because just to say celibacy is not a complete answer.

George Mason: This is not that different it seems to me from the question of what are women allowed to do in the Catholic church?

Justin Lee: Yeah.

George Mason: If they can't have a priestly vocation.

Justin Lee: Right.

George Mason: Right. Then in a sense, they've also received this vocation of no to a certain extent without necessarily having a path to serving Christ and the people of God. And I think the church is beginning to re-examine that question, the Catholic churches. And I'm happy about that. Well, we've run out of time on this episode, but Justin, thank you for being such a clear and positive witness, a generous person in the way you talk about your own experience and calling people to love and respect one another in the church. We're very grateful.

Justin Lee: Well, thanks so much for having me here. I really appreciate it. Terrific.

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