Episode 90: Cameron Mason Vickrey on growing up in the church

Join us in a feel-good conversation between father and daughter. Cameron Vickrey is George's oldest daughter. They talk about their shared interests in theology and art and how growing up in the church has helped her navigate her call.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason: What's it like to grow up in the shadow of the steeple of a church? We'll be talking with someone who has done just that and it's a family conversation. Cameron Mason Vickrey is my daughter, but she is also a theologian, a public school advocate, a minister, a mother, a wife, a remarkable story. One I think you'll want to tune in for, on Good God.

George Mason: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm George Mason, your host, and I have a special privilege today to welcome to our program, Cameron Vickrey. Let me say it differently. Her name is Cameron Mason Vickrey and she is my oldest daughter. And so welcome Cameron.

Cameron Vickrey: Thank you for finally having me on your show.

George Mason: Finally. Okay, so this has been something ... it's been a goal for you in life or something?

Cameron Vickrey: No, no, I'm kidding. But since I've watched every episode, read every episode, I've worked on the transcripts, people may not know that I help kind of produce the Good God project and work on the website and everything. So it's fun to be on this side of it.

George Mason: Right? So Cameron works for Upward Strategy Group and has a contract with us with Faith Commons and with Good God. So yes, the things that people hear and see and read often have your hand on them. It's kind of an all in the family project, isn't it? That's wonderful. Well Cameron, so you live in San Antonio now, three little girls, my beautiful granddaughters, and you are the oldest of our three children.

George Mason: So I think people would be probably interested to know growing up as a preacher's kid and having three preacher's kids now yourself because you are married to Garrett Vickrey who is a pastor also, how did you discern your own sense of call to the work that you do? Which, really is a lot of faith-based advocacy I would say. We'll talk more about that in detail, but I think there's a fascinating story that is very touching to me to remember about your own discernment of call because everyone would know that you also have a divinity school degree, a Masters of Divinity and are a minister. And so even though you're working in this other space and being a mom, you have your own sense of call. Describe what that discernment process was for you.

Cameron Vickrey: Well, I think growing up, being a preacher's kid, I'm unusual in the sense that I stayed at the same church growing up, because you've been at Wilshire for 30 years. I'm 35.

George Mason: Right. You started kindergarten when we came.

Cameron Vickrey: Yes. Right when we came. And so I'm very lucky for that. And so I had a deep love for Wilshire, for the church that I grew up in. And I think because of that, I knew that I wanted that to be a major part of my life in some way. And so I started to feel a call to ministry, but I didn't know if that's really what it was. But I started exploring that a little bit and wondering if that's where God was calling me to church ministry or to ministry in some form. And eventually I came to you and talked to you about it.

George Mason: Well, my recollection of that is that you were doing a youth internship one summer with us. And so part of our internship program with college students is to give them an opportunity to see if they have a taste for this work for ministry.

Cameron Vickrey: But I think it even started back in high school, I think I was very involved in the youth group, had a wonderful youth group experience thanks to Darren DeMent, our youth minister. And I think I started feeling it a little bit then and certainly a couple of summers later when I came back to be a youth intern here. And so I remember coming to you and saying, I'm wondering if I'm being called to ministry. I just don't know. I definitely have a love for church, but I'm wondering if I have a love for all churches and ministry in general or just for this church. And so that was definitely part of my exploration process is trying to figure that out because so much of my understanding just came from one place, and my experience. And so college was really good for that, going to different churches and I did internships in other places and that really helped.

Cameron Vickrey: But then the other piece of it, which I know you like, is I also didn't know if I was hearing God's voice or just your voice in my heart, because you had been my only pastor really for my whole life. And so there's definitely a process of trying to understand that too and figure that out. But I did feel called to ministry of some sort. I've never felt called to a specific kind of ministry. A lot of your work has been on the formation of pastors and you've been a huge advocate for women in ministry and women pastors. And I've never felt pulled in that direction specifically, but some kind of ministry or work because of my faith in the advocacy world or the nonprofit world, something. But it's never been very specific for me.

Cameron Vickrey: And so, when I went to divinity school, I think that that often drove my professors crazy.

George Mason: Ah, because they, they wanted more clarity from you too.

Cameron Vickrey: It's much easier to work with someone that knows where they're going and knows what they want. I mean, one of my internships while I was in divinity school at Wake Forest was at a pilates studio, connecting mind and body with the soul and that kind of thing. So I've just never had a really super clear sense of direction, but that has also never bothered me.

George Mason: It just bothers everyone else.

Cameron Vickrey: Bothered everybody else.

George Mason: But I do think that's actually something we're all trying to get adjusted to now. And that is, that there are more ways to imagine serving God in the world than maybe in times past we understood. Where for women especially, a generation or more ago, their choices when they went into ministry and went to seminary were limited to become a missionary or become a pastor's wife. And that was pretty much it. Maybe children's ministry-

Cameron Vickrey: Or children's director.

George Mason: A children's director, not a minister because ... and so now that there's more equality and opportunity there also is more of an imagination in the workplace about different ways that people might serve. And actually I think seminary and divinity schools are trying to catch up to that because they realize that everyone is not called to be a pastor. And if they limited the people who came only to pastors, they'd have really small schools and they wouldn't survive.

George Mason: So they're trying to broaden that out somewhat. But I think I want to go back a little bit to this discernment of voices, right? So I think this is not just your experience, but I think it's the experience of a lot of people, whether it's with their parents or with their pastors or with someone who is an admired mentor who really puts a finger on you and says, I really see this in you and I think you should really consider this direction. Probably most people who come to an understanding of their vocation have some human voice that they perceive as channeling the divine voice. And that may not always be true. And figuring out how, as the scripture says, to discern the Spirit is really an interesting challenge, especially when relationships like these are often loaded with love and familial ties and hopes and expectations and all those sorts of things. So how did you finally figure out that this maybe was God's voice and not mine or God's voice through mine and it would be okay to affirm it. And, do you have any guidance about that?

Cameron Vickrey: Well, I remember a scripture, a story that really helped me with this. And it was the story of Elijah on, in the cave and waiting for God to come by and let him know that it was okay to come out. And he heard the earthquake and the fire and what all, was it?

George Mason: I always think of the musical group, Earth, Wind and Fire. And then it was the still small voice.

Cameron Vickrey: And then it was the still small voice. And Elijah because he had such a relationship with God, he was able to recognize, that one's God. And I think I just decided to trust that I'd had this relationship, this faith foundation with God for as long as I was conscious of it, and that if I felt like I was hearing God's voice, I probably was.

George Mason: So when I dedicate babies in the church, one of the things that I say over and over again is I ask parents, are they willing to keep this child within the precincts of the temple with a reference to Jesus when he was dedicated, in order that the child may learn the voice of God so as to discern God's unique call and claim upon their lives? And so clearly you had that experience because we reared you in the church and you've been a preacher's kid, so you didn't have much choice. But nonetheless, you were able to figure that out. This is a challenge, I think, increasingly for people who don't have that inner life cultivated spiritually. Do you have a sense of how things are changing for children and young adults in the church in that respect?

Cameron Vickrey: Oh yeah. So many churches want to get kids out of worship or not invite kids into worship because they're wiggly and it's hard.

George Mason: Not your kids, of course.

Cameron Vickrey: Oh, well, it's funny, I was just telling you that yesterday was a Sunday and we went to our early worship service, which is a little bit more casual. And it's folding chairs instead of pews. And, my kids were awful. They were awful. And they're nine, seven and four. And they know how to behave in worship. And they just forgot that day. And they were so distracting. I mean, they probably got up a half a dozen times for whatever reason, they scattered crayons across all the floor. It was everything. And I was humiliated and I had the thought, why are we even here? Because I didn't hear a word of it.

Cameron Vickrey: I was so busy with them but I do know, thank goodness, I know that even when it seems like they're not soaking anything in, that they're not paying attention, it's getting through. Something is getting through. Whether it's even just the mystery of what are they doing with that bread and that grape juice? Actually this is a little controversial in the Baptist world, but I let them take communion. I don't know if we've talked about this.

George Mason: I don't think so.

Cameron Vickrey: And I've had people ask me, well, they're not baptized yet. Why would you do that? And my theory is that this is a symbol of the abundant life with Jesus. And I want them, even if they don't understand it, like Zetta even, my middle daughter, even calls it a snack, do we get a snack today?

Cameron Vickrey: And at first I was really sort of offended by that, I said it's not a snack, it's really sacred. But then I just decided, well, it's something she looks forward to and she can know that this is something special that she gets in church because God loves her. And so she doesn't understand it. They're not going to understand a lot about worship. But I think there's a sense of mystery and sacredness that is sinking into their spirit. And just the practice of listening for God and witnessing these Holy moments and being a part of them that they're not too young is really important. And it's just so hard, I think for young families to do that because you may sacrifice your own sense of worship for a little bit.

George Mason: Well, I can just hear all of my sacramental friends cheering for you for making that decision because their idea about the sacraments is that they work on you before you are aware that they're working on you. Whether it's the Supper or even baptism for those who are in infant baptizing traditions that they have a way of drawing you into the mystery of faith. But it's not just those particular rituals. What I hear you saying is that it's actually participating in the life of a worshiping congregation where they're hearing preaching and they're listening to songs and they're learning tunes and phrases and they're learning how to pray and to be reverent and to be quiet and to engage in various ways. So simply the presence of being among the people of God performing this act of worship has a kind of shaping influence on the soul. So, well, let's pick that up after our break.

Cameron Vickrey: Okay.

George Mason: The Good God program is a project of Faith Commons, a nonprofit organization I founded in 2018 to help promote the common good doing public theology across faith traditions and across racial and ethnic lines is an important thing today in our communities. We hope you'll continue to enjoy Good God, but look at some of the other things we're doing also through Faith Commons at www.faithcommons.org.

George Mason: We're back with Cameron Vickrey, and Cameron, we were talking earlier about your sense of call and how it led you to seminary. Eventually. First you went off to college and what'd you major in?

Cameron Vickrey: Art history.

George Mason: Okay. That seems such an obvious thing, right? That you went to college to study art history. Why was that?

Cameron Vickrey: That's a really good question, Dad. I think by that time I knew that I was going to probably head for seminary.

George Mason: Really? Because you never told me that.

Cameron Vickrey: No. See I think you're not remembering exactly right. I think I did know that by the time I went to college.

George Mason: Oh really?

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah. Or was starting to wrestle with it-

George Mason: Well, I am old.

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah, I know I got to remind you of how things were. And so yeah, I didn't want to double dip in religion. I didn't want to major in religion-

George Mason: Which I think is a great idea.

Cameron Vickrey: I wanted something different, something exciting. And I did love art and art history-

George Mason: And you are very artistic yourself actually.

Cameron Vickrey: Yes. I enjoy it. And so that's something that you and I have always loved to do together is go to art museums. And one time we went to Italy and that really sealed the deal for me, I think.

George Mason: Very good. And of course art and art history and religion, historically they go together really well.

Cameron Vickrey: And I think I was really fascinated by that connection. So all my papers in art history had to do with theology and religious art and that kind of connection. So yeah, I really enjoyed it. I feel like I have a really bad memory. People always want me to explain the significance of this or that painting from history. And I'm like, oh, I got to refresh my memory on that. But, but I really loved the major, it was so fun. And I got to spend time in Italy during college for that.

George Mason: So college was at Furman University.

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah, in South Carolina.

George Mason: Off to Wake Forest Divinity School.

Cameron Vickrey: And then I went to Wake Forest for divinity school and got to study with Bill Leonard and Diane Lipsett was my New Testament and Greek professor. I loved her so much. And Frank Tupper, who introduced me to my love of theology.

George Mason: All right, so let's talk about that because we had really a serendipitous time, I think when you were studying theology with Frank Tupper. And you came back home and you were rummaging through my library at church and asked if you could borrow the book, A Theology of Hope by Jurgen Moltmann. And I said, sure you could do that. And then I remember you calling me from school and saying, dad, all the things you underlined in the things you said in the margins were things I would've done and were thinking as well, which really made me proud. And then you made a discovery along the way about Moltmann and our connection.

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah. So the first Moltmann book I read actually was Trinity and the Kingdom and it just completely shifted my perspective of theology. And I had such a moment with that book. I stayed up all night reading, one night I remember and the next morning I found myself in Dr. Tupper's office just saying, I can't believe this. I just never thought of it this way. And this changes everything. And then that's when I came in, wanted to read more Moltmann and I borrowed your book and I was telling you all about this and you said, well yeah, didn't you know that I wrote my dissertation on Moltmann's view of the Trinity, theology of the Trinity.

George Mason: Exactly.

Cameron Vickrey: I had no idea.

George Mason: So what was it you think that captured your attention so much about his theology that changed everything for you in terms of the way you viewed the faith and the world and all of that?

Cameron Vickrey: I think it was how relational it is, how relational the Trinity is. It's not the hierarchical ... you've got the father and then the son and the spirit down here. The perichoresis of the Trinity that Moltmann talks about. And then even more than that, the way that it's even open for us to become a part of it.

George Mason: So for those who are not theologically trained perichoresis the root word is like choreography, Which is dance, right? And peri around. So the idea that the father, son and Holy spirit are in this dance of the Trinity. This sort of circulation of relational love and sharing that is part of a bond of relationship that makes God, God and welcomes us onto the dance floor. Welcomes us to come in and be part of it.

Cameron Vickrey: In fact, I always picture that with Matisse's painting of the dance.

George Mason: Oh, I love that. Right, exactly.

Cameron Vickrey: There's not just three people dancing.

George Mason: There you go.

Cameron Vickrey: To me that's the perfect picture of the Trinity.

George Mason: Lovely, lovely. And there's that wonderful painting by Rublev of the Trinity as well that has the father, son and Holy spirit pictured. But then there is on the table there is that blank spot that we think was a mirror originally, which is to say that-

Cameron Vickrey: So powerful.

George Mason: You're invited into this. Can you find yourself in this picture? It's a beautiful idea. Well, so that's all a bit more esoteric in terms of theology and it's the kind of thing that gets people like you and me excited because we have ideas that are new and all. But bringing it down to the practical level, how does it change everything to begin to view life like that in the church and religious community and the way people relate in the world? What are some practical outworkings of that, would you say?

Cameron Vickrey: Well, it should change the way we view each other. If I can be kind of part of this relationship with the father, son, and the Holy spirit, then so can anybody. And so it puts us all kind of on an equal playing field. So there's that. Then, there's this whole idea of the new creation and the work that God is trying to bring about in the world and needs us to be a part of that. And I think that, that was really significant for me to think about partnering with God, with the father, son and Holy spirit to bring about this new creation.

George Mason: Well for me, some of the implications of this have to do with how do we break the patriarchy that has been part of the historical culture. So, you and I are in traditional roles still, but we are working hard to make sure that they are roles of choice and not roles that have been assigned to us. So I'm a male, I'm in the pastor role. Mom is a pastor's wife, but you are as well. And yet you are finding a new way in doing that. And your husband, Garrett may be the least patriarchal pastor I know. He is an incredible example of an egalitarian partner in ministry-

Cameron Vickrey: And in marriage.

George Mason: And in marriage.

Cameron Vickrey: However, I haven't told you this story, but I teach Sunday school. Mom teaches Sunday school. and you and Garrett are both the preachers. So one of my daughters asked me just recently, so if you're a woman, I guess you just teach Sunday school and only the men can preach because pops and daddy preach. But you and Giddy teach Sunday school. Oh, I thought I failed.

George Mason: The modeling is really important.

Cameron Vickrey: It's so important. And what's interesting, Garrett and I were talking about this, he's so sensitive to having the woman's voice on the platform, tries to have a woman pray or lead in worship in some way. But he does most of the preaching. And so when he's gone, he likes to have a woman preach and fill the pulpit for him. But when he's gone, we're gone usually. So my girls don't really get to benefit from that. So I thought, okay, I got to work harder to show them that this is not a man's thing. The woman's place is not teaching Sunday school. But you're right. I mean we know that we believe that and yet we're kind of still in these traditional roles. And so it is just a constant struggle. It's never going to be finished.

George Mason: Right. And I don't think that we have to say that the only way that we are part of that solution is for us to change our own particular sense of call, but rather to make sure that we are advocates for and participating in a wider opportunity for people. Which is to say that, I need to find ways also for women to be preaching and to have pastoral residents who are women and women colleagues. But yes, I mean role modeling is really an important part of that. So that's one thing I think I pick up about the practical implications of how things should change is defeating the patriarchy that to create really a sense that men as men do not rule the world. It's men and women together who participate in God's creation. And another thing though that strikes me about this common theological understanding that, that we are part of is the idea that Christianity's role in the world is not to conquer it in the name of Christ, but to serve it in the name of Christ.

George Mason: And that we are not trying to win for ourselves, so to speak, but we're trying to invite the world to be liberated to know its true self. And that in doing so, we can find partners who don't even confess their faith in Christ, but who are nonetheless already part of what God is up to in the world. And so we don't have to worry about do they agree with us, but we can think about the liberation of the world and the glorification of God at the same time. And to me that's a really freeing sort of way to look at what the role of the church is.

George Mason: Yeah. So then I think theology was a big part of this. Church is a big part of this. If you have anything to leave people with today in the place you work and serve and in the roles you have as a mother, a minister, a spouse of a pastor, what would you like to say? Especially to young adult parents today about the importance of church?

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah. I have a friend that just recently started coming to our church. Their family started visiting and joined because my oldest daughter Finley invited them. Invited her friend. And they do not stop talking about this feeling of community that they have found that they didn't know they were so unhappy before and so lonely. And they have so much family that lives in San Antonio all around them, but they weren't connected to a community of faith and it has totally transformed their lives. They feel like.

Cameron Vickrey: And so we're so busy, everybody is so busy and most people that I know have two incomes, both parents are working. And so your weekends are really precious. But this is one of the best gifts I think you can give to your family, not just to your kids, but to yourselves too, is to find a community of faith where you can create these relationships that are really different from anything else that you have in your life. So yeah, I think the participating in that beloved community of faith-

George Mason: Beloved community.

Cameron Vickrey: Yeah. It's really, to me a glimpse of the Trinity of the perichoresis of community with God. So I think it's worth the sacrifice and the effort that it takes to do that.

George Mason: Well Cameron, thank you for being on Good God. And if it's not completely obvious to you, let me say it and let people overhear how proud I am of you and how grateful I am that in your adult life and in mine now that we share in this kind of work together, it's a beautiful thing and it's a blessing to me.

Cameron Vickrey: Thank you.

George Mason: Love you.

Cameron Vickrey: I love you.

Jim White: Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White, social media coordination by Cameron Vickrey. Good God, conversations with George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2020 by Faith Commons.