Courageous Conversations: Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger and Noor A’wad

Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger and Noor A’wad are leaders of the West Bank-based Roots/Shorashim/Judur, an Israeli-Palestinian initiative for understanding, non-violence, and transformation.

Even in this time of unprecedented violence, distrust, and division, Roots is persisting in a vision of a future that upholds the humanity of all Israelis and Palestinians.

In this conversation, our guests discuss with George how they are moving beyond the present reality, the role of identity in this conflict, and ways to resist the further entrenchment of hatred between these two peoples, who are forever destined to live together. "We have a saying that comes from the founder of Roots on the Palestine side … that we have to find a way to fit two truths into one heart." - Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger

Watch the video, here.

George (00:10):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about Faith and Public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we begin a series, uh, with this episode called Courageous Conversations. And to kick off that series, I'm delighted to welcome two of the, uh, founders and, uh, key figures in, uh, the organization called Roots from, uh, Palestine, uh, Israel and Palestine. Uh, what we welcome Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger and Noor A’wad, we're grateful to have you both.

Hanan (00:45):

Thank you, George.

Noor (00:46):

Thank you, George.

George (00:48):

So, uh, please tell, uh, us more about the idea of Roots as a, uh, a name for the group and how that relates to why you came to be and how you do your work together.

Hanan (01:04):

Oh, that's a lot. So, briefly, roots focuses its work in the West Bank. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in the Palestinian Territories, where Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs live very close to each other, but with no contact, no contact. And that means ignorance of the other stereotypes, bigotry, perhaps racism, lots of resentment and lots of fear. And the truth is, fear kills people die, they kill and are killed because of their fear. What Roots tries to do is to bring the two sides together, neighbors, meeting neighbors. We created the only joint Israeli Palestinian Community Center in the whole West Bank, where before the war, before October 7th. Local Israelis and local Palestinians were meeting each other in, in educational events and religious events, cultural events, uh, political discussions, briefly. We do two things. We humanize the other, they're not a monster. And number two, we come face-to-face with the identity of the other side.

Hanan (02:16):

We're not meeting each other just with our common humanity. We're going beyond that, and we are revealing to the other, the fullness of our historical, cultural, religious, national political identities. So it's very, very challenging. And that gets to the word roots. We are about the roots of the conflict, and there's no way to deny, at least we think that it's a conflict over identity. It's a conflict over, over roots about religion, about history, about culture. Israelis and Palestinians tend to believe and assert the other side is not a people. The other side is not legitimate. They're made up. And we also tend both sides to assert that the other side has no connection to the land, the land of Palestine, the land of Israel. And we claim that the land has two identities. It's the land of Palestine, and it's the land of Israel. And two peoples are connected to that land. This message is very, very, very difficult. It alienates people from both sides. And, uh, since the war began, it's be, become even more difficult. Mm-Hmm.

Noor (03:28):

<affirmative>. So we are a group of locals, uh, local Israelis and Palestinians who have realized, um, after working together for several years, that a, we have responsibility, uh, responsibility toward the situation and the reality that we are living and, and dealing with, and also toward the future and the future generations. And what we are working for is that, or what we are working, uh, on, is to, to create more understanding, uh, between Israelis and Palestinians, to create, uh, more a people on both sides who believe, um, in the connection, um, and the, um, legitimacy of the, of the other side, and that the other side deserve the same rights that I, that I and we deserve, and that we eventually have to live together. But, um, when I say we live together, that doesn't necessarily mean if we live in two states or one state, or what is the act, what's the exact political framework, uh, because within our group, we have people who, uh, support different, uh, let's say political, uh, frameworks, different, uh, visions.

Noor (04:42):

But for sure it's all based on the beliefs that the two people, the Jewish people and that the same people belong to this, to the entire land between the river and the sea. And, uh, both people, uh, deserve to live on this land, uh, respected with dignity and human rights. And at the same time, it's very important for us to say that give us the space to bring our identities, uh, as Palestinians and as Israelis, uh, and that the, uh, issue we are dealing with, as my partner said, it's not just of the violence that's happening now. And it's not just of the occupation or Israeli military control over the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. And it's not just in 1948, it's even before that the issue we recognize at Roots that the issue is deeper than that. That's, I think that's why we are, we're, we're calling it roots because we back, go back to the roots of the conflict, to the roots of the problem. And that means we go back to our identities as Jews and as Palestinians, uh, what those, how those identities were shaped, and how we can actually reshape our identities in a way that it's not a exclusive and denied the other, but in a way that include the other. So I still maintain my identity as a Palestinian, and I still maintain my identity as a Jewish Israelii Zionist, but I accept, I find a way to accept the other identity.

George (06:08):

So, uh, Hannan and Noor you, you're doing this work, Hannan, uh, you are the Director of International Relations for Roots. And nor, uh, you are an activist, uh, a leader and spokesperson for the organization. Uh, and each of you therefore has, uh, an identity apart from roots. Uh, you are deeply embedded in your own communities. When those of us who are in the states, uh, try to be educated about what's going on, uh, in Israel and Palestine, uh, I think, uh, we, uh, assume, uh, that, uh, the, uh, situation is quite binary. That is to say, um, you have, uh, either to defend the right of Israel to exist. And that gives almost a, um, uh, a blank check to the Israel Israeli government to, uh, defend itself as such. Uh, and, uh, if you are, uh, supportive of, uh, Palestinian cause, uh, you are supportive, uh, at the very least of, uh, uh, of, uh, the, uh, determination to, uh, and the occupation and establish a, a Palestinian state.

George (07:33):

But the imagination of people is not much beyond that. I would say here, uh, you live in a much more nuanced, uh, setting and work. Uh, already you've said we are not committed necessarily to a particular peace plan, but, uh, we're doing more foundational work. Uh, so Hannan, uh, one example of this, it would seem to me is that, um, you, you are controversially a settler yourself. Uh, right? Yeah. So, you, you are an Israeli Jew, but you are living in the West Bank in a, a Jewish settlement, uh, which in itself is a, a deep offense to many Palestinians. Uh, and yet, uh, you find yourself, uh, in these kinds of conversations. Uh, so, uh, I, I think, uh, what I'm trying to get to here for, uh, people in the United States is this notion that, that the life on the ground is much more complicated, perhaps, uh, that, that there is a real politic that exists now. Uh, and, uh, you seem to be trying to find ways to deal with, uh, things beyond these binary choices of, uh, one, one or the other of you must be free from the river to the sea, right? Uh, this, this language is used on both sides, but, uh, it seems to me that you are trying to offer an imagination of, uh, uh, another way of having these conversations that breaks through this impasse of either or, is that, is that fair to say?

Hanan (09:16):

It's fair to say.

George (09:18):

Okay. So how do you go about this work? Then

Hanan (09:26):

We have a saying that comes from the founder of Roots on the Palestine side, Aliya Boad, that we have to find a way to fit two truths into one heart.

George (09:38):

Okay?

Hanan (09:39):

That two truths into one heart is the way to fit two peoples into one land. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what that means is to understand that the Jewish connection to the land is true and important, and I express that in my living on the land, but it cannot be an exclusive connection. It is not an exclusive connection, nor use that word exclusive, that my connection to the land does not preclude the possibility that another people is also connected to the same land. And on the other side, the Palestinian people are deeply connected to the land, but that does not mean that the Jewish people are not also not deeply connected to land. There are two peoples in this land. The land has two identities. The land mother, the mother land has two children. And that's really, really hard for most Israelis and most Palestinians systemic, because our identities on both sides are deeply based on exclusivism.

Hanan (10:45):

It's us and not them. And if you give any legitimacy to them, you're already undermining your nationality, your national enterprise. Yes. And, and the, and one of the keys here is to understand that, to realize and accept and recognize legitimacy of the other side, and the connection to land does not undermine my legitimacy, mean my connection to land. And the opposite is the case that as long as either side denies the other side's legitimacy, there's gonna be bloodshed, there's gonna be war, there's gonna be conflict, which undermines my own connection to land, my own connection to land can only be fully supported by me supporting the other side's connection to land as well.

Noor (11:28):

So if I can add on this, what Hanan just, uh, talked about, actually explained to us, and make us, uh, maybe a little bit understand why there are, why there are so many Palestinians who see their identity not stopping just at the green line at the 1967 borderline, uh, or ceasefire line, and why there are, who are living on this side of, of the, of the Green Line. We, as we said before, we both recognize that the, our identities make us the two sides, the two people connected to the entire land. Now, the people, sometimes when they hear about roots, they make one of the most, like common assumption people make, is that since Israel roots are from the settlements, or, or they are settlers, then roots is somehow trying to justify the existence of settlers or justify the, uh, the settlers, uh, political, uh, impact or political effect.

Noor (12:22):

And that's not necessarily the goal. Uh, roots is working with settlers because we are Palestinians and Zu who are living on the front lines of the conflict, who are affected by this conflict, by what's going on, by the occupation. But also, it's important to say for me that we are not justifying, the point here is not to justify or to just create coexistence with the settlers. We are providing a model to solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And the settlements is one issue, but it's not the only issue. We have other issues to deal with. Uh, so this is what we are trying, this is what we are doing at, uh, at rules.

Hanan (12:59):

I wanna add something to what nor just said, which is that I justify, I legitimize Jewish settlement in the whole land from the river to the sea, but I do not justify legitimize the way that we Jews have settled in the West Bank, Judea and Samaria. There. I have no doubt, this is my belief that my connection to the whole land is true and legitimate. And at the same time, the way that me, me and my people have been expressing that connection to land through settlements that take land from Palestinians and limit Palestinian freedom and impinge upon Palestinian security. That is wrong, that is bad.

George (13:57):

So my partner, uh, rabbi Nancy Caston, uh, likes to use the phrase, uh, that, uh, as a Jew, uh, and I believe you could also say this, nor as a Palestinian, uh, you belong to the land, but the land does not belong to you. Uh, is is that a phrase that each of you could adopt and say, uh, it would be a way forward, uh, to, uh, frame this, uh, approach?

Noor (14:29):

Yes, exactly. Actually, we have this saying at Roots, uh, from the very beginning of roots, actually. Um, we have a story about Rabbi, who you can say he was like the spiritual father of, of, of fruits. And, um, actually a quote from him, he said that, uh, we belong to the land, not that the land belongs to us. Yes. Uh, and that's something that his students or, uh, actually understand. And that, that means for us on both sides, that we both belong to this, uh, to, to this land. And this land can actually have more than one, uh, identity and more than one, uh, than one people.

George (15:07):

Yes. So how has your work been affected and changed by the conflict that began October 7th with Hamas' horrific attack and the subsequent, uh, uh, retaliation that's happened in Gaza? And I might mention also with settler violence in the West Bank?

Noor (15:33):

So if, if I can, if I can go first about that. Uh, I think I can say, first of all, there are different, uh, impacts sometimes and different feelings on both sides, on both the Israeli and the Palestinian side. Um, the way how we deal with the city, the way how we dealt with the situation, the way how it impacted us to a certain degree, I can say before the 7th of October, we, on the Palestinian side, we were still experiencing a certain level of tension and, and violence and occupation, uh, restrictions, a incursions and invasions at night, uh, shooting, uh, in, in north of the West Bank and, and killings. So there was a level of tension that already existed before the 7th of October. And then we have the attack. So it felt like an escalation of, of what already existed, like a situation that already existed.

Noor (16:24):

And we have this huge escalation that happened. Uh, I, the immediate effect was that, um, we immediately felt we are in a, in a, in a war now, uh, many, many Palestinians were not yet fully aware what's what's going on. And then the story or the situation start to becoming clear in, in the, in several hours and the first two days that this is a Hamas attack. And they, they were planning it for two years. And it felt like this is a, uh, revenge from our side for the aggressions and the attacks that was happening for the last two years on us, especially that Hamas also brings this religious voice, a strong religious voice to the conflict. Uh, even the name, they give it to the, to their, to the Operation <inaudible>. It's because of Almos in Jerusalem. And for the last two years before that, to Ramadan, we wi witnessed an escalation of violence in Jerusalem, specifically in the time of Ramadan and in, uh, in Al Mosque.

Noor (17:28):

So, um, I, I, I said several times that the attacks surprised me when it happened, but it wasn't completely shocking in the sense of, it wasn't like completely unexpected because we had this blockade and pressure in Gaza for 17 years, and I was, we were like, assuming that this will happen at some point, not exactly the way it happened, but I was exactly like, I was actually thinking that something will, some sort of sub explosion will happen in Gaza. And it happened. Um, so we could not make any meetings. Um, we, uh, turned our activity. We actually made some meetings on Zoom, uh, and we felt like I can say, I felt from my side, we are like lost in terms of what should we do right now? Should we, uh, make a statement, uh, is a statement enough? Can we agree on a statement?

Noor (18:26):

Um, and yeah, that, like, there, there were many things that happened and, um, uh, that's how we were affected, uh, from, from the 7th of October. And until now, I can say we cannot just go back to the work that we used to do before the 7th of October. Um, this, uh, this, this war that started on the 7th of October, um, limited our work a lot and put us in a very, uh, difficult situation. And we are even, even thinking among us, Israelis and Palestinians, were in this, in this, in this work. And sometimes Israelis alone, or Israelis themselves, and Ians ourselves, we have meetings to try to see how we can move forward after, after this.

Hanan (19:14):

I will just add, uh, perhaps it's important the listeners to know, uh, the reasons why, uh, Israelis and Palestinians in Roots cannot meet, have not met for the three past three months. One reason is very, very, uh, mundane. The Palestinians in the West Bank have been under Israeli military closure since the beginning of the war. They don't have freedom of movements. They literally cannot come in buses or cars or taxis to the Roots, dignity Center, our community center. That's the first reason why you can't meet. Uh, and they've been living for three months under closure. Livelihoods have been restricted, uh, going to, to schools, universities, to doctor's appointments. They are living under closure for three months. That's terrible. And the second reason why the two sides can't meet is that even Israelis and Palestinians who have met at the root center in the past, many of them, not all, but many of them since the beginning of the war, don't wanna meet the other side. Yeah. The narratives have become so, so polarized. Each side reads different news, knows different facts. Ha each side has deep, deep claims demands of the other side. You have to say this, or I can't talk to you, you have to say this, or I can't talk to you. Yes. Each side sees the other side is as very, very violent, dangerous, uh, terrorists at this point. So if the work of roots was difficult before the war, and it was, it's much more difficult today.

George (20:47):

I, I think that's, uh, much of the reason I asked the question, because it does seem that when, uh, the war broke out and the continuing hostilities, it intensified, uh, greatly the positions that each, uh, party had to where it was even more difficult to see a nonviolent way to break through, uh, to some resolution. And, uh, you know, the, the more you feel threatened in a sense, uh, the more you tend to look to your own survival, uh, rather than to reach out and, and, and to, uh, have these courageous conversations that characterize roots as entire mission to begin with. Right? So the, the difficulty of getting people to engage is even worse. But that's also true even for conversations about this matter here in the States. Uh, people who ha are longtime friends. Uh, and, and this is true not just, uh, with, um, people who are friends across religions, but even within our religions, uh, we have these difficulties where we, we can hardly talk to each other because our positions are, uh, uh, are, are so different on, on the matter. And so I, it does seem that however, uh, if we stay there, we never make progress, right? We only have conflict. So when it gets even more painful, we have to increase our tolerance for pain so that we can begin to have those conversations again and work towards resolution.

Hanan (22:25):

Uh, well said.

George (22:26):

Yeah. So what are some of the demands you hear people making before they are willing to have conversation?

Hanan (22:35):

Ooh, uh, something we talked about, uh, today when, uh, Nora and I were in a roots, uh, staff seminar, the first face-to-face staff seminar since the beginning of the war, one of the things we heard from an Israeli activist, actually the Israeli co-Director of Roots Erman, he said he was in a, uh, meeting of ALMEP is the alliance of Middle East Peace, uh, that brings together leaders of peace organizations. He said he heard that a lot of Palestinians, and many, many organizations are saying, we can't talk to you the Israelis, if you were a soldier in Gaza, or if you have a son who's been a soldier in Gaza, well, that means like most of the Israeli population. Now, of course we can, I can understand that position. I don't, uh, accept it, but I can deeply understand it. Uh, another thing we've heard from many Palestinians is that if you Israelis don't condemn the Israeli attack by air and on land on Gaza, we can't talk to you.

Hanan (23:44):

It's very similar to the first thing I said. On the other side, there are certainly Israelis, and I mean even peace activists who have said and are saying that Palestinians, if you can't condemn the Hamas massacre with no rider and no context and no explanation, then I can't talk to you. If you give any context, any explanation, any writer, I can't talk to you. Right. And again, I can understand where that position is coming from, but I, I cannot justify it. I personally think, and this is just basically what you said, George, that this is the time to enter into conversation with no demands of the other side. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just to listen.

George (24:26):

Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I agree. Listening is a very big part of your, uh, approach to this. I know. Uh, and, and listening, not just so that you can then make your case better, but actually deep listening, uh, to understand the position of the other, uh, I know that this is, uh, uh, the way you sort of lead in your presentation of what Ru's approach is, right?

Hanan (24:57):

Yeah. Perhaps it's an opportunity to say that dialogue is a catch word that we use for, and that many use for the work of roots in similar organizations, but it's not completely accurate. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because in many, many cases, what we do is not dialogue. Dialogue means a conversation, a given and take, uh, we listen to the other side and we respond. That's what dialogue. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> means. But in many, many cases, in roots, we find that what we have to do is just listen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> not to respond. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, just listen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then the other side can speak and be listened to. We, it's not about responding to what you hear, Hmm. Words. It's not about a rejoinder. It's not about, eh, showing them where they were wrong. Ah, it's just listening to their perspective and going home and being perhaps angry about it and upset about it and absorbing it, thinking about it and trying to, I call it massage it. And here's something in what you heard that perhaps is true, and perhaps it even undermines something that you thought, and that's good. Uh, we are moving through this to what can be called unsettling empathy.

George (26:30):

Ah, unsettling

Hanan (26:31):

Empathy. I find

George (26:32):

Unsettling empathy. There's a phrase,

Hanan (26:34):

Some piece on the other side, and I identified with it, and it does undermine something that I thought about me, or about them, or about us, or about him, or about her. And, uh, like nor said earlier, we are proud of our identities, but we're also willing to rethink parts of them to be challenged to do introspection. In, in Judas, we call it Shiva. We call it something like repentance. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If we continue thinking that all the truth is on my side and the other side, there's no truth. We're not gonna get anywhere. That's goes back what we said at the beginning, two truths in one heart.

George (27:14):

So I sometimes in this work that we do at Faith Commons, uh, explain to people why we use the language of interfaith rather than multifaith. Uh, and it sounds very similar to what you're saying here because, uh, the distinction I make about it, and others can, uh, interpret these things differently is that, uh, in an multifaith conversation, uh, we simply respect the others' point of view, uh, to be spoken. And we, uh, try to, uh, make sure that there is space for those things to be said. But in an interfaith conversation, we are, uh, willing for ourselves to be changed by the encounter, uh, that, that there is a reflection that happens, that we, uh, are willing to listen in such a way that we move from maybe, uh, this, uh, deante, uh, where we seek a kind of peace with, uh, no change to being changed as people, uh, in, in the encounter. Have you experienced that, nor in, uh, in the, these conversations?

Noor (28:32):

Yeah. Um, we definitely, like when we have these discussions at road and these meetings and, uh, we listen to each other, um, you start to actually create empathy and empathize with what the other side's saying. You find yourself at some point that you put yourself in the other side shoes and look from their perspective how things actually, uh, looks like and how they might be, how they might experience it. And, uh, definitely that, um, gives you, uh, or you start to feel, uh, the, the empathy toward the other side. But in times, like now, in times of the war, uh, I, I fully agree with Rabbi Han, um, about how to have the mutual empathy and to understand that I don't have the, the full truth is not on my side. There's truth on both sides in times of conflict. And more like now, even for us activists, sometimes I have to recognize it's very difficult to remember that you see, um, the, the bad things that's happening to your own people every day. You see the suffering of the innocence. You see the children who are dying. You see all of the, this, uh, uh, this suffering, and all of a sudden you start to ask yourself why they are doing this to us, where all of this evilness is coming from. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But at the end of the day, I, I have to remind myself that this is a conflict between both sides, between us and, and, uh, it's not only the truth on, on my side, uh, but the truth exists on, on both sides.

George (30:08):

Okay.

Hanan (30:10):

I, I wanted to add, uh, George, that the distinction you made between multi-faith and interfaith a sounds to me similar to the distinction between coexistence and reconciliation.

George (30:21):

Aha.

Hanan (30:22):

Coexistence, coexistence, we're living side by side with them. We may not, uh, deeply accept them. We may, uh, know nothing about them, but we'll live in peace. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we won't kill each other. Right. Roots is not about that. Right. A very often coexistence is, um, is connected to maintaining the status quo. Right. And roots recognizes that the political status quo between Palestinian Israelis is iJust.

George (30:49):

Yes.

Hanan (30:50):

We're not gonna coexist under the present circumstances. We're gonna reconcile. Reconcile means to go deep into the other side's, identity, excellent. And to see the truth of their identity and find room in my heart for their truth, just like they will find room in their heart from my truth.

George (31:05):

Well, it's been wonderful to have this initial conversation with you, uh, on this podcast. And I want to say to those who are listening, uh, that, uh, if this has wedded your appetite, uh, that rabbi, uh, Schlesinger and, uh, Noad is are, are coming to Dallas, uh, they will be with us on February the 13th. Uh, there will be, uh, two events on that day. You can go to the Faith Commons website, uh, faith commons.org to get more information about that. And we'll put that out on the social media as well, uh, because we're looking forward to you being here to, uh, teaching us to have courageous conversations and enlisting our prayers and our own skills in reaching across, uh, differences in our own community so that we can be allies and partners for peace. So thank you to both of you and the work at Roots. Uh, thanks for being with us on Good God. And we look forward to your visit to Dallas as well.

Hanan (32:06):

Thank you, George. And let's just mention the Roots website, friends of Roots net.

George (32:12):

Friends of Roots

Hanan (32:13):

Net.