What's it like to practice Native American spirituality in America? with Yolonda Blue Horse

Yolonda Blue Horse is an advocate for Indigenous people of America. She is a member of the Sioux tribe, and is here to educate us on what Indigenous spirituality entails and ways in which we can be more conscious and sensitive to the culture.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we are continuing today our series called American Faith. Our special guest is Yolonda Blue Horse, and she is executive director for, well, for Indigenous Communities Engagement. Oh, I'm not sure I got that just right. For the Memnosyne Institute. Can you say that for us again, Yolonda?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Yes. I'm the director of the Indigenous Cultures Program for Memnosyne Institute. It's a mouthful, I know.

George Mason:
Titles get to be a mouthful. That's right. But even more so, what I would want to say is that Yolonda is a terrific advocate for Indigenous peoples and for her community. She is of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and is a presence for social justice in the Dallas community and in the larger DFW area, also. We are delighted to have you on this program, Yolonda. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Thank you for having me. I look forward to our conversation.

George Mason:
Well, we've had some opportunity to talk before this and you've been educating me already. I think many of our viewers and listeners would want to understand just a little bit more about the spiritual and religious aspects of Indigenous peoples, Indigenous cultures, and how they relate to the wider religious culture in America, which tends to be much more oriented toward a Christian religious culture. So when we've talked, what's really stuck out to me is that the categories that people bring to these conversations are actually not altogether understandable to Indigenous peoples, because you have a different orientation in your spirituality that's rooted in the earth and in everyday life and in nature. Can you speak a little more about that for us?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Well, it's like when I go out and I do presentations to try to explain to people, what, first, all people need to understand is all Indigenous people do not believe the same way. So for me, perhaps, for being Lakota or being part of what non-Indigenous people call the great Sioux tribe, we have different beliefs versus the Dene or Navajo tribe. So each tribe has different outlooks, beliefs, ceremonies. We're all different. And I'm even including the Indigenous people down in Mexico. What people really don't realize about them, either, they're Indigenous as well. They're not just "Mexicans", but they are part of individual tribes down there. That's a term I think that colonialism gave that to them, but they are tribes down there as well. So they all have different beliefs, too.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
But what I really like to tell people is when you look at our culture or look at the way we believe, or the way we pray, it is tied to earth. We believe that Mother Earth, she has given us everything that we need. And, as we had the discussion before, or when people asked me, "Well, how... Do you have a church or something?" No, we don't have a church. We have the outside. That is our church, out there. We also have a great respect for all of the animals, plants, trees, people. You have to think about it, too, before our lands got conquered, or rather, stolen from us, we lived outside. Our habitats were outside. We were nomadic people and we got really close, and I'm talking probably at the beginning of... We've got really close to the earth, learning about nature.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
It's not like we sat... They didn't have the technology, any technology back then. So the outside was our TV set or so to speak, and watching the animals and watching the spring... We believe, just like we believe a lot in the stars. We actually have our own constellations. And I say "we", I talk about the Sioux tribe. So I'm talking from where I'm from. But there's things like that, that I think people, when you look at it that way, then you say, "Okay, now I understand." And we don't have a book, we don't have a Bible, so to speak, we don't, but we use outside as our Bible.

George Mason:
Yeah. It seems that whereas many religions, including Christianity, have this sense that there is a division between the natural world and the supernatural world, you have a more unified vision of that. That the great spirit is infused in all things and is to be experienced through nature and through the encounter with the world as it is given to us. Is that fair to say?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Yeah, that's fair.

George Mason:
Okay.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
I hate the term supernatural, because I think that a lot of people have a tendency who, if they have not studied Indigenous history or Native American history or whatnot, they have a tendency to think, and this is some of the things I've experienced that, yes, we have... Some tribes have pipes and they're not called peace pipes. They're pipes. That's a Hollywood term, but we don't put... It's natural tobacco that actually goes in there. It's not, well, what you guys smoke in your pipes, I'm like, "What?" That people think that we have drugs in them or something. And no, we don't, it's actually very natural tobacco. It's, to use the term supernatural, I think is... That's one word I would, I don't like, just simply because people look at us and because Hollywood has done so much damage to who we are as a people. We believe in things that maybe on a different level, just like, I think, any religion probably believes on a different level, but because of, like I said, Hollywood or people reading books, it's unfortunate that some people have a tendency to look at us as being...

George Mason:
Primitive or backwards or unenlightened or some such thing. Right? Yeah.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Right.

George Mason:
So, I think the people who are listening and watching this program are people of generally religious good will and would be eager to do the right thing, but may not always understand the best language, the best... What are some of the things that you would say are guidelines for people like me to learn how to speak, what language should we use, and shouldn't we use in reference to Indigenous peoples? And there I've just done it. I've said Indigenous peoples. We've heard language like First Nation, Native American, my guess is the term Indian is probably not the one we would want to use to... Unless you used it yourself. Right? So how would you instruct us, what would be honorable ways for us to begin this process of doing better in this respect?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Sure. I think using the term Indigenous is probably the most respectful, and it just depends. It varies, even with us, who uses the term American Indian, or who uses the term Native American. So, I mean coin toss from there, but Indigenous is probably the better route to go. Another word people have used the term "squaw" to reference to female Indigenous people. That is an absolute no-no. Same with the word "redskin", which I'm so glad that team finally got rid of that name. That's like using the "N-word". So, things like that, but, and then just to have respect for... It's like, people would have come in with their cameras and their video, whatever recording devices. And it's like, wouldn't you find that offensive if I got... I've went into your church and just started snapping pictures and... Be respectful and ask, "May I take your picture?" Or "May I have your photograph?" And things like that. Excuse me again.

George Mason:
I think people might be interested in why you are experiencing some...

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Allergies.

George Mason:
Allergies and all of that. Tell people what you've just done.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
With the non-profit I worked for, and because of the storm that we had, a lot of the Indigenous people south of San Antonio are getting... We're getting left out. They had no power, no water, pipes are busted, and they weren't getting any help. So what we were able to do was organize to get us this 18-wheeler that had 17 pallets of water on it. We were able to get all that donated from 7-11 and get it down there. So we made a trip down there, but that wind down there was just blowing really bad, and it got to me. So I apologize to your viewers for having to stop and cough.

George Mason:
It's all right. Good. Well, thank you for that service that you provided. So getting back to, though, ways that we can honor, I would think, too, that there is probably a narrative about the nature of our country altogether that is needing to be revised in light of the fact that we tend to tell a narrative that we have somehow discovered America, that we have created America. And this has been challenged, of course, in part by black Americans who have experienced their sense of "Wait, where is our narrative in this story?" Similarly, Latinx folk had said, "We were in Texas before you were, and how about our story?" But Indigenous peoples, Native Americans, were here before we got here. And there's a sense in which your part of that story is perhaps now beginning to be honored more and more, as people are beginning to say, "Wait a minute, we need to look at how we understand this sense of place that has come to be called the United States of America." So what are some ways that you think that we could begin to honor that better?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
I think first to understand, a lot I've really notice down here, and I'm not from here. I was born in South Dakota, mainly raised in the Denver area, and it was the military that actually brought me down here to Texas. So I think one of the things people need to really realize is that one, yes, we still exist. I have come across people that couldn't believe that there were still Native Americans. I thought that was crazy when I first moved down here. Secondly, there's not a lot of history or information taught to high school students, or students, period, about the Indigenous existence here prior to the settlers coming and whatnot. I think to really read and look, to see, do your research, to understand who we are, is important, and just to understand what we went through.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Some people don't really realize is that the United States government attempted to get rid of us, basically. It was a genocide against Indigenous people. They wanted us gone, and what other people don't understand is that's why they set up a system where you're a member of this tribe or that tribe, because eventually, and yes, we do get some things from the government. We do get some assistance, like healthcare, and one of the crazier things people say, "Well, you got all those casinos." The monies from the casinos go into the infrastructure for the tribe or the community there. But a lot of times, like WinStar, there's so many hands in that bucket right there, so many other investors, it's not just that Indian reservations, Chickasaws, WinStar, it's not that... They're not rich.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
So it's not like that. Do we get free school, college assistance? No, not all of us do. I wish I did, because I've got a huge debt [inaudible 00:13:56] gotten my master's degree, but to look at who we are really are, and don't be afraid to ask questions, because we want people to ask questions. We want people, and don't be afraid to, I'm always one at one to be a... To educate. Educate, and let people know what's true or what's not true, but get out there and look and ask, and when this pandemic is over with, we actually have what's called powwows here in the Dallas area. People are more than welcome to come if they want to become educated and stand and watch and see and learn.

George Mason:
You mentioned genocide, and I think part of this education is becoming honest about our history, too. When Texas was a Republic, one of its presidents, president Lamar actually issued orders to essentially extinguish Indigenous peoples in Texas. That's not something that is taught very much in, I think, the classrooms of Texas students. And so it is, but it is part of a history that would honor a broader story about who we are without just saying the whole point of rewriting this is just to make white people feel bad. It's, instead, to have a true and fair narrative. Right?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Right. And to let people know that this did happen, so history does not repeat itself. So we learn from the mistakes that happened, and we learned how... I mean, even, look at what's happening on the border right now with the children and these people being in cages and whatnot and their living conditions. Why are we doing this in 2021? Why are we treating human beings like this, period? The United States government did this to the people of North America here, and now they're doing it again. I mean, it just, we're not learning. We're not learning, or we're wanting to turn our heads away from what happened way back when, so it's, again, it's just people really need to open their eyes and look, and one thing I learned, and I'll never forget this, I thought the Texas Rangers, when I first moved here, were just the baseball team. No, there was actually a law enforcement entity.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
[inaudible 00:16:36] Colorado, we don't have anything like the Texas Rangers there. And then when I found out the history of the Texas Rangers, I couldn't believe that whole entity, that law enforcement agency is even still in existence. How can you be wanting to be part of an agency that their goal was to get rid of Indigenous people, period, to get them out of Texas? So that was crazy to me when I first moved here.

George Mason:
Well, I think on this program, one of the things we're trying to do, Yolonda, is to create a sense of understanding for those who may live within their religious traditions in this country, certainly in the state of Texas, and recognize that other people maybe don't have the same religious or worldview outlook on things, and so I think this is a beautiful example of some of the differences in this conversation, because as I understand it, the more Western view of the earth or land or property is that it belongs to us. Whereas the more Indigenous perspective is that we belong to it, that we have a sense that we are eager to have ownership of land, and you have a sense of obligation to land. And so it's a completely different perspective, so that when we start talking about carving out a territory that is native territory, you might say, and land, on the one hand, that sounds generous of us to do so. On the other hand, you might receive it like recently, the rulings in Oklahoma that give much more land to Indigenous peoples, but nonetheless, the whole idea of demarcating a property as if it belongs to someone or another is really foreign to the mindset, isn't it?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Right. And I'll give you another example. I mean, if you really think about it, you'll understand what I'm saying. Take, for instance, the Black Hills. The Black Hills were originally, in the treaties, were supposed to be given to the Sioux nation, and they're not. They're full of casinos right now. They're mining uranium up there. There's people that live there that aren't supposed to be there. It's supposed to be native land, right? But the second thing, of course, and I'm proud to be the tribe I am, of the Sioux nation, because we are the only nation on the entire planet that has actually conquered the United States flag. And we did this in history, during the Indian Wars. No, we were one of the last ones to fight back as well, when you look back in history, but in doing so, and eventually we had... They moved us onto reservations, but I think just to rub it in our noses, maybe because we killed Custer or whatever, to rub it in our noses.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Now you have Mount Rushmore, that they stand right in the middle of our land. You think about that. And it's just like the government wanted to say, people just wanted to say, "Here, you think you got us? No, we're going to give it to you again." So it's having that Mount Rushmore, and plus having those presidents, when you looked them up in history, they were slave owners. And people don't know a lot about Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln gave the order to have the largest mass execution of people to the Dakota, to the Sioux people. There were 38 of them hung. So there's a lot of history and people don't realize it's out there, and we are... One of the biggest things people also don't understand is we are the smallest group, ethnic group, here. We were the first ones here, but we're the smallest, and we don't have a large voice. So it takes things like this, which I'm very appreciative of you having me, to educate people out there to get out there and talk about who we are. We don't have a large voice. The only time that we've recently had a really large voice with what was going on up in Standing Rock with the Dakota access pipeline. So we deal a lot with even environmental racism.

George Mason:
Sure. So we were coming to the end of our time together, and I thank you so much for it, but I can't let us finish without having a further conversation about this continuing challenge of cultural appropriation through sports and team mascots and school mascots and the like. Now, we know that there has been a growing trend to come away from that. Years ago, Stanford University moved from being the Indians to the Cardinal. And recently, finally, the Washington team changed their name and dropped Redskin. And they are still not saying what they're going to be yet. We have heard that the Cleveland Indians are doing the same. That's progress. You have been involved, and there's a beautiful PBS documentary I want to point people to as well, that features your advocacy work here in the Dallas Fort Worth area, because some students at Keller High School in North Fort Worth, North Tarrant County, they became concerned about their mascot, Indian mascot, and felt that it was inappropriate and began to appeal to the school board.

George Mason:
And you were there to support and encourage them and give guidance and help them along the way. And that is documented in this PBS American Portrait documentary that I, again, would point people to. Episode three, which is "Keep", is the idea. So, can you say a little more to people about this idea of when many people say, "Well, this is just tradition, it's history, we've always used this and we don't mean any offense by it, and we're just trying to actually honor Indian culture" and these sorts of things. What is it that you would say to people, to say, "Stop and think from our point of view." How can you help us think through this so that we might break through this history into a more generous place?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Well, when we went to the school board, one of the things, and there are scholarly journals on how mascots affect Indigenous people. What they can do. One of the most important things is if I lived in that school district, and my children are grown, but let's just say, if my children go to that school and they see this mascot and they know that I'm teaching them traditions, Native American traditions, and that one of them is you don't, you don't walk around wearing a headdress. What we tell people is that, there was a time there for a little bit when people were going around saying they earned the purple heart, and that wasn't true. And how many veterans were so offended by that, and a headdress is the same thing for us.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
It is a great honor, like the purple hearts, to have a headdress. So come Halloween time, no, it's not cool to wear a headdress. And it's definitely not cool to have a mascot as one, which is what their mascot has, is a headdress on it. But if my children were to go there and they see this, how do you think that makes them feel? Is that really who I am, especially when a child is going through a time in their teenagers of finding out who they are, what group of people are they going to belong to? That really affects them as well. And there's literature on that. And it goes through the same thing for non-Indigenous kids. I went to a football game. I wanted to see that the cheerleaders there at that high school dressed like they were... They had a Native American costume on, headband and fringe this.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
And I thought, Oh my goodness, that right there is cultural appropriation. So that high school is teaching non-native kids that it's okay to dress up like another culture. It's okay to do this number, which we don't even do, that's another Hollywood thing, but it's okay to walk it... There was a teacher there that had on a bright blue headdress, she was teacher of the week. Imagine that. And I thought, Oh my gosh, these people, either one, are not educated on how it hurts, or they just flat out don't care. And we've pointed out even to the school board here in Keller, that okay, the Washington team gets it. What is taking you so long? The state of Maine actually put a law into effect where you can't have Native American mascots anymore. So it's going to take awhile.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
I think just from hearing noise in the background, hopefully it will change. It's going to take some time. We've been going at this, gosh, for about four years, five years now, and it'll take some change. It'll take time. And I think we'll see it. I think the council members know, but it's got to be more the community there. It's got to be more of the community there. And I think a lot of people, from what I'm hearing, a lot of the students were at first initially were scared to speak up. Even teachers were scared to speak up for fear of retaliation, which I completely understand. This is your job, or you don't want to be... The other young man that was on PBS with me, he was actually getting bullied. He was getting other kids throwing stuff at him. I mean, you see what happened, but he [crosstalk 00:26:51].

George Mason:
But that's not really coming from the kids. That's coming from their parents, the authority figures that don't want to let go of a privileged position in culture. And so I think part of the reason we're doing this, of course, is to educate people who do have influence, who can raise their voices, advocates and allies, and so that we can make the promise of America that we are truly pluralistic religious culture that honors all traditions, that we can make that a reality in our time. So Yolonda, I thank you so much for joining us on Good God, for your advocacy in the community, not only for your own people, but also for all your neighbors similarly, because as Dr. King said, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Right?

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Yes, yes. And thank you, and I appreciate you taking the time for this, for allowing me to give me a platform to speak on. And if anybody has any questions, I'm willing to answer anything I can and open to anything anybody has to say, or is interested in knowing.

George Mason:
Thank you so much. And I hope people will reach out to you. You're easy to find on Google. Yolonda, Y-O-L-O-N-D-A. Blue Horse, two words. And thank you so much. And we'll see you around town and in places where it matters as we work together. God bless you.

Yolonda Blue Horse:
Thank you, sir.

Speaker 3:
Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White. Social media coordination by Cameron Vickrey. Good Good, Conversations with George Mason, is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2021 by Faith Commons.