What's it like to be Muslim in America? with Imam Omar Suleiman

Imam Omar Suleiman speaks with George about Islamophobia in America and how last week’s attack on the Capitol is an experience Muslims know all too well.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm George Mason, your host, and I'm delighted to welcome to an edition of American Faith, a series that we are doing on Good God. My good friend, Imam Dr. Omar Suleiman.

Omar Suleiman:
Always good to be with you. Thank you so much.

George Mason:
Thank you. I should just briefly introduce you and say that other than being my friend and colleague in the Dallas community, Omar is the President of the Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Studies. He is an adjunct professor for Islamic Studies at Southern Methodist University, SMU, and he is special advisor to Faith Commons, the parent organization of this particular program. Omar, we've had lots of conversations across the years in lots of ways of working together in Dallas and so this is sort of a bit of a picking up after an ellipsis point for us. But for others, it is an introduction. One of the things we're trying to do in this series is to make the point that there are many American faiths. There is not one American faith.

George Mason:
That is to say that although the dominant narrative may be for most Americans is that America was founded as a Christian nation. The truth is, Christians came to these shores but the nation itself was founded not to be Christian, that constitutional America was deliberately intended to be pluralist and to be welcoming to all religions and not to be preferring one. Then we find that there is a proliferation of religions that grows over the course of two centuries or more of American life and here we have someone like you born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Omar Suleiman:
I like how you said New Orleans, right. That never happens.

George Mason:
Thank you. Thank you. My wife went to Loyola in New Orleans.

Omar Suleiman:
Oh my god.

George Mason:
I had to get that right. But in any case, you are American through and through, and it's not like you have come from some place across the sea, although the parents did as immigrants, but nonetheless you are an American and you are Muslim. You are practicing a faith that is widespread now in America and is as American as anyone else's faith. But it doesn't always feel like that on the ground. Can you tell us some anecdotal ways perhaps in which we could understand what the every day lived experience is for a Muslim-American?

Omar Suleiman:
That's a great question. I would say, first and foremost, yes, obviously, idealistically, realistically, those two things don't always line up where sometimes the way we see ourselves, we're not seen by others and we have to refuse living up to someone else's standard of what it means to be an American or someone else's prototype just because we don't fit it. And when it comes to being an American Muslim, I think the lived experience depends upon many other factors. I think that there is an underlying consistent factor of living with the demonization of your faith. Your faith is demonized and the community is demonized and the Muslim world is demonized. So I think that anyone that takes their faith seriously, as a Muslim deals with the discomfort of the demonization of Islam and the Muslim community, that's been pretty consistent and Islamophobia is emanated from all quarters of political life, American political life, as well as social life and media life.

Omar Suleiman:
And what I mean by that is that when it comes to Hollywood, when it comes to the portrayal of Islam and the Muslim community through Hollywood where it's constantly portraying Islam and the Muslims as a community that needs to be saved, the community that either is vicious and malicious or hostage to a vicious and malicious way of life and they need to be saved from their way of life. It emanates Islamophobia and the demonization of Islam and the Muslim community emanates from all sides in different ways. It's packaged in different ways. However, I think that the next step or the next level of that really depends on a number of factors.

Omar Suleiman:
If you are African-American and Muslim, you're black and Muslim, and those two things are not mutually exclusive. The African-American community is the largest makeup of Muslims in America and a lot of times that is not what is displayed in the media. Our forefathers of Islam in America are those that were brought in chains. Up to 30% of those that were brought enslaved were Muslims and had their faith violently taken away from them. And there is a resurgence of Islam in the 20th century through the likes of Malcolm X and Mohammed Ali. And so if you're black and Muslim, you're dealing with being black and being Muslim and so that means a double whammy in that sense in terms of discrimination, bigotry and we've seen that. We've seen the way that discrimination is compounded if you're black and Muslim.

Omar Suleiman:
Then if you are foreign looking, if you're an immigrant and you are Muslim, and I'm talking about someone with a thick accent and someone that comes from a country that's particularly being looking at as hostile to the United States at the moment, and that's something that you see peek in accordance with whoever we're describing as evil at the moment or focusing in on as evil at the moment and you're facing that level of discrimination. You're being targeted. If you are a Palestinian Muslim, you're dealing with anti-Palestinian bigotry as well as being Muslim. And then if you're a Muslim woman, you are a very visible target of Islamophobe and so you're more likely to witness bigotry at an enhanced level in public life and deal with those types of challenges, again, from all types of quarters.

Omar Suleiman:
You can expect that your day to just go out and grab a cup of coffee can turn into the worst day of your life at any moment because the person that's serving you your cup of coffee decides to throw a comment towards you or you're driving on the road. My wife, a hijab Muslim woman, a woman who wears hijab, the experiences she has, even though I wear this pretty much everywhere, the experiences that she has are far more frightening than the experiences that I have. I think that it differs for each person in accordance with a number of other factors at that point. But the underlying theme is being exhausted by the demonization either of Islam as a religion or the Muslim community as a community that emanates from all sides.

George Mason:
I think we should just pause for a moment and just recognize that what you're saying is that the every day life of a Muslim-American or an American Muslim, we'll get to that in a moment, is one of constant anxiety, of looking over one's shoulder, of being careful, of having to monitor your surroundings. Is that fair?

Omar Suleiman:
I think that that's fair and I think far more for other people. In terms of the fear in particular in the public space, those that are visibly Muslim and particularly Muslim women, that's definitely the case.

George Mason:
Okay. Let's be even more specific about how in the past two decades this has intensified. Obviously, after 9/11 there was an enormous outrage in America about the terrorist attacks that were brought about by a certain faction of Jihadist Muslims that you and other people in the Muslim community [inaudible 00:09:50] condemned as well, but nonetheless, we had a reaction in the entirety of our country, not only against a specific group of people who acted in violent, murderous ways, but against an entire religion. And there have been a series of events and attacks and consequences of that, that continue to be a part of our country's life in the two decades since that time which also includes even in the last couple of years. Dallas being the place where more mosques have been protested by armed American citizens than any other city in America. Did I say that correctly?

Omar Suleiman:
Dallas definitely leads the way, so Dallas, in that sense the capital of Islamophobia in America.

George Mason:
I think people who live in the Dallas area would be stunned by learning that that is the case because I think we have this sort of idealized version of ourselves as being a generally kind and generous and religiously oriented community that finds a way to live together in harmony and all of that, but again, when you can't even go to your place of worship without fear of passing armed protesters who have Nazi insignias and who are threatening the lives of the people who go, this is an extraordinary thing that I think we just need to raise up because it's not something that the media is covering regularly. Right?

Omar Suleiman:
No, it's not and it's one of those things where it became just a normal part of our lives. And I'll say this, that the people that you saw protesting on Capitol Hill, they weren't protesters, but those images are images that we are very familiar with and they, of course, in Dallas, were holding Ted Cruz signs before Donald Trump alongside their guns in front of our mosques and this is all captured by video and by images and so those long rifles and those chants and those threats in front of our mosques have been a regular occurrence. And I'll also say this, because I think it's important and I hope you don't mind me introducing this element into it, but I think the problem is, it's not just the bigots in the street, it's the fact that Islamophobia is deeply intertwined at the state and policy level in a way that validates the actions of those in the streets and those that are showing up with their long rifles in front of our mosques and so when you talk about the relationship between the United States of America as a government, the American government, and the Muslim world, it's not a good relationship.

Omar Suleiman:
We have to account for the way that Islamophobia has led to state violence in the sense of our foreign policy, our militarism, our foreign policy specifically targeting the Muslim world has been unprincipled, brutal, has destabilized multiple nations and has led to all sorts of adverse reactions and problems that are not taken into account by the American public usually because people stay ... they are not in proximity with that stuff. I only know what I'm seeing on the news, what I'm seeing on the media. At the domestic level, the Irving mayor who is now in Congress and was endorsed by the Dallas Morning News-

George Mason:
Beth Van Duyne.

Omar Suleiman:
Beth Van Duyne, who was the mayor of Irving at the time, and I know that many people at the Dallas Morning News did not endorse her, but at least the paper endorsed her for Congress and she now sits as a representative of this area. It was her stoking the flames initially and saying that there is a Sharia court that's operating in Irving, Texas and that Muslims are plotting a takeover of government here in Irving, Texas where we suddenly need to pass an anti-Sharia bill in Irving, Texas, so that's what led to these flames being stoked and we're still dealing with the fallout of that. Clock Boy and all of those other ugly incidents, that was not just people on the street, that was people in government too. Islamophobia is interlaced in our foreign policy and our domestic policy and of course, lastly with that, surveillance, not surveillance.

Omar Suleiman:
The countering violent extremism, the CVE programs, that have led to entrapment and deep violations of the civil liberties of American Muslims are molded in [inaudible 00:15:18] have been used against the black community for generations now and you look at the formation of the Department of Homeland Security, out of which ICE was formed. ICE came out of a counterterrorism reality and look at what we're dealing with in terms of mass surveillance and just the deep violations of our civil liberties. That's also Islamophobic.

George Mason:
And all this at a time when Christopher Wray, the Director of the FBI, has said specifically that the single greatest domestic terrorist of threat in America is white supremacy, white nationalists. We don't see that same level of surveillance, that same level of anxiety taking place with folks like that. Let me go back to, constructively, some of the ways that we want to talk about where we move forward.

George Mason:
I think we've outlined some of the policy issues and some of the lived experience on the ground of what it's like to be Muslim in America, but I think what we want to do on this program, at least, is to give some guidance, to say if we're to be part of the solution and not the problem, there is a certain understanding that has to come first of all which we're working to do here. But what are some concrete steps that we could take? What are some ways that we could more participate as lay persons, clergy, as people in the political sphere to pave the way for a greater sense of full enfranchisement in the democratic life of Muslims in America?

Omar Suleiman:
I think that's a great question and I appreciate it. It takes a lot of interest and it takes a lot of open and honest conversation. I think that first and foremost it's important to take the time to actually listen to American Muslims talk about their lived experiences. I would say under normal circumstances, visit your local mosque. Get to know your local Muslim community. Listen to your Muslim coworkers talk about how they are feeling and the different ways in which they feel disenfranchised because sometimes, again, that can be there are different ways of disenfranchising someone so it's not always holding an AR in front of your face, it's sometimes more than that, so the different ways in which people feel disenfranchised. And I think it's important for, especially those that would deem themselves as allies of the Muslim community to understand us beyond merely another checkbox or another marginalized group that you're just going to check the box and say, "All right, lets make sure we throw Muslims in there with all the other groups that have been marginalized in America.

Omar Suleiman:
We're a faith community. We're a community that feels often unwelcomed in both right and left spaces, that feels demonized in different ways. Not to fall to orientalist tropes and not to fall into this idea of the Muslim community needs to be saved from Islam in order to fit in. What does it mean to embrace, and I've heard you say this multiple times, that Muslims are the test of pluralism in America, are truly a test for pluralism in America. I appreciate that sentiment because American Muslims don't want someone else to speak for them, they want to be able to speak for themselves and that means paving the way for that and making sure that you take the time to really understand how American Muslims are feeling about things and I would say that when it comes to challenging for the lay person, challenging Islamophobia beyond merely rejecting the angry white supremacist on the street, I think that that means challenging Islamophobia at the policy level, at the state level in a very serious way.

Omar Suleiman:
I find multiple times that when it comes to our foreign policy, this suddenly becomes a very uncomfortable conversation. When it comes to surveillance, when it comes to critiquing many of the practices which have emanated out of the democratic party as well, surveillance existed under the Bush administration and the Obama administration. It's similar to immigration where you'll hear immigration activists say, "Hey, look deportation did not slow down under Barack Obama, under a democratic administration." This type of policy occurs in multiple facets and under both republican and democrat administrations.

George Mason:
Let's pursue that even further. Barack Obama received a Nobel Peace Prize and yet was one of the most egregious presidents in the use of drones to conduct foreign policy by the assassination and killing of Muslims around the world. Whatever you want to say about the nature of technology and military technology and its potential benefits, the consequences of the use of drones is that there is always collateral damage that happens, that there is a sense of victimization that happens then in Muslim communities around the world that intensifies the anti-Americanism because of the use of technology that makes vulnerable and disrespects communities and a religion around the world and this took place during the Obama administration, not during the Bush administration, not during the Trump administration alone.

Omar Suleiman:
Not alone. That's the keyword. It happened certainly, Bush launched all-out wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and completely destroyed nations and obviously the casualty counts are high. And Trump certainly maintained the dronings of multiple people around the world, innocent people. But [inaudible 00:22:29] disclosures which made it even uglier because it took an already unaccountable use of force and made it more unaccountable. But it certainly was escalated under the Obama administration and not in any way diminished and what that means is that a drone falls on a wedding somewhere in Somalia and there's absolutely no visibility of those victims whatsoever.

Omar Suleiman:
Now why is that important for us to discuss here, and I think this is also part of the point that we started off this program with saying that we're talking about American Muslims, Islam as an American religion, Muslims as an American people, that's what we mentioned so I think it's important to recognize that the same dehumanization that underlies our foreign policy also underlies our domestic policy. What does that mean? If you look at the way that inner city communities are governed in the United States, there is an often unspoken, but effective tactic which is to say that these communities are too brutal, that they can only be governed by violence. They can only be governed by brutality and so that justifies excessive use of force because you've associated a criminal identity, a terrorist identity, a thug identity that allows you then to justify your excess of force and power in the eyes of the part of the public that's not familiar with the dynamics of those communities that lead to the output that we see which are just horrific images and things of that sort.

Omar Suleiman:
It can't be that these people deserve justice so that we can live in peace because if we don't give them justice, if we don't stop doing this to them, then we're not going to be okay. Because then you're also not treating them as equal human beings. So what does that mean, by the way? What that means is that sometimes, and you didn't just do this, by the way, so I want to be very clear, but sometimes I remember Marco Rubio was, in the 2016 race when he was speaking about then-candidate Trump, and his saying, I think Islam hates us. He immediately went to what he immediately pivoted to, but when you say that, you make it harder for Americans that live in the Muslim world and harder for our American foreign policy because they are hearing the President say, I think Islam hates us. The fact that you pivot there is actually a problem, because you have to start from, is this just towards two billion people in the world?

George Mason:
Right, right.

Omar Suleiman:
Almost two billion people in the world, because when you talk about equal human beings then you have to start from that point of it's unjust. And that's where it's very hard for us to do so particularly with communities that we're disconnected from at a very human level. And I always mention this about the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King that one of the things that MLK scholars will point to is the evolution of Dr. King's thinking when he spoke about the Vietnam War to where at the end of Dr. King speaking about Vietnam, he started speaking about it from the perspective of the Vietnamese child, not from the perspective of this is bad for America because it puts our soldiers in harms way. No, start from the Vietnamese child who is having bombs dropped on them and has absolutely no idea why they are being reduced by these high powered weapons to dust and ashes with absolutely no consequences in the world.

Omar Suleiman:
That underlies foreign and domestic and it's the same thing. It's the same thing that causes police brutality, the excessive use of force, state violence domestically, that causes the excessive use of force in the military sense abroad and that is dehumanization of people that is born out of white supremacy and erases all sorts of people and Muslims have been greatly diminished in the race in that sense by that machine.

George Mason:
I think we've discussed this, you and I, from time to time, and that is that in the particulars of our religious traditions we are different and we won't erase those or should erase those in order to affirm full participation in American society. But there are common elements in all of our religious traditions that go to the point that you were just making that could create the conditions for greater peace and greater participation in our country for everyone and the Christian golden rule is one of those things. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. When you begin to look at the Vietnam War from the point of view of the Vietnamese child, not from your own point of view, now you're putting yourself in the position of the other person and asking, how would I want someone to treat me, let me treat that person in that way.

George Mason:
If we were to do that in American religion, if the dominant Christian person in America, what I mean to say is, the Christian experience is dominate in the culture, and so if Christians were to look at Muslims in America, look at Jews, look at Sikhs, look at other religious traditions and say, "If I were in their position, how would I want to be treated?" Things would be different.

Omar Suleiman:
And I think it's not just, it certainly starts from that point because, as you mentioned, particular when you're speaking in the capacity of religion, it's not just that. You know what happens when you develop an understanding and you move beyond basic humanization of that person, is that you're actually able to appreciate that person's perspective. I don't know many Christian clergy, Christian leaders that I've been able to develop a relationship with and obviously the level of that relationship had differed. Sometimes people want to show up for the dialogue, sometimes it's the debate, sometimes it's the press conference, and sometimes it's deep relationship, which I've been blessed to have with you.

Omar Suleiman:
I can't think of a single time where those relationships have been built where a deeply devote Christian did not walk away from our relationship with a greater appreciate of Islam and of the Muslim community, like, wait a minute. These people are really not who I thought they were and their religion is not what I thought it was. And I give the example of, with Muslim Christian dialogue, I think that is the position of Jesus, peace be upon him, because Jesus means a whole lot to me as a Muslim, a whole lot to me as a Muslim. With Muslim Jewish dialogue, I think the similarities and how law is approached and there is so much to be [crosstalk 00:30:41]

Omar Suleiman:
When you start to look into the history and the deep relationship under [foreign language 00:30:48], the way that Muslims and Jews have coexisted in the past and have coexisted in beautiful ways, the rich intertwining, if you will, the rich understanding and camaraderie, there is a deep appreciation there. Once you're able to actually get to there, where you feel safe enough to talk about that stuff and then to say, "Wait a minute. This is really, really different. This is not what I thought it was." You move beyond humanization into an appreciation of that diversity and to not just finding it as a bitter pill to swallow, but as actually enriching to the American social fabric.

Omar Suleiman:
I think that when it comes to the religious groups of people, within our religious groups of people starting from the perspective of dominate white Christian narrative and broadening that perspective of religion, I think that there is a way there, a way forward there which is that there has to be an understanding coming to a place of understanding that white supremacy is as secularizing as anything on the left.

George Mason:
Yes.

Omar Suleiman:
Once you bring white supremacy into your dogma, into your creed, and you turn Jesus, peace be upon him, into a symbol of white supremacy, whether you verbalize that or not, but you use Jesus effectively as a tool of white supremacy, that is as secularizing as anything that's on the left.

George Mason:
Let's look at what happened, the insurrection and who stormed the Capitol just this week. This program is going to be several weeks from now aired, but on January 6th, the day of the certification of the election of Joe Biden as president, there was this march on the Capitol and an invasion of the Capitol and there were Jesus Saves signs all over the place. There were people wearing crosses and people who were claiming that they were motivated by their Christian faith in doing this. This is an affront to me as a Christian, let's be very clear. And this is a deeply offensive way of being Christian in America and I reject it and want people to be held accountable for that.

Omar Suleiman:
[inaudible 00:33:27] Because of my relationship with you and with so many Christians who I have built such a deep relationship with, some in my own family, I know that that's surprising, but there are a lot of [inaudible 00:33:41] Christians on my mom's side. I've got Christian relatives. The bumper sticker that went viral in Texas was, Kill a Muslim for Jesus. That was on people's cars, Kill a Muslim for Jesus. I saw that and I thought to myself, if I was George or Michael or Andy or Rachel and I was driving and I saw that, I'd probably be super offended too. Stop using this for something so important, so ridiculously ugly and just flashing that on your car.

Omar Suleiman:
Obviously the hypocrisy, the consistency, and I would be really upset, but if there was a bumper sticker in Texas that said, Kill a Christian for Mohammed, I'd be pretty upset about that, so outrageous. But only one of those is accepted and has a policy implication and [inaudible 00:34:35] in so many different ways here in the United States. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I thought about you when I saw that bumper sticker.

George Mason:
What we're trying to do as we wrap up here is, thank you for this conversation, by the way, but I think, again, we're trying to look at what are the ways that we can, in an everyday experience of life together in our communities begin to tie the frayed ends of the tapestry that is America and begin to mend our souls and move toward the goal of a really beautiful pluralist, religious environment. And one of the ways that we can do that, I think, is you've mentioned a lot of policy things, but it's also in not allowing things like that to stand, not just shaking your head when you're a Christian and you see a bumper sticker like that, not just letting it go when Jesus Saves at a political insurrection takes place. We have to speak about it, we have to denounce it and then we also have to make positive steps and that is to reach out to people who are part of offended communities by these sorts of things that are vulnerable.

George Mason:
For example, just to list a few things, if we could, to end. What are some concrete things that we could do, for example, if you are a non-Muslim American and it's the season of Ramadan for instance, [foreign language 00:36:33], what should we say, what should we do when you are celebrating? What should we say and do when you are hurting? What are some of the ways that we can begin to repair and promote good relationships?

Omar Suleiman:
Thank you. And I know that we just scratched the surface with policy and I [inaudible 00:37:00] taking us down that route a little too long and we certainly did not-

George Mason:
That's all right.

Omar Suleiman:
Are we talking about COVID or non-COVID, George?

George Mason:
Oh, right. Yeah, exactly. Well, since I don't think we're going to be in COVID forever, I hope, let's think about it in non-COVID terms.

Omar Suleiman:
I think visiting a mosque is really eye-opening for people to actually get to know their local Muslim community and to get to know their local Muslim leaders. That doesn't mean that you might walk into a mosque and you come away feeling unwelcomed, but that certainly would be in the one or two percent of the 100%. I think that most people that have actually gone to a mosque, and it wouldn't be because of Islam or because of the Muslim, it would be because of some personal reason probably. But I think most people that have gone to a mosque have really enjoyed their experience and have gotten to know their local Muslim community and came away feeling enriched. Most people that have taken their families to mosques and got to know their local Muslim community came away feeling deeply enriched.

Omar Suleiman:
I think in your coworking environment, workplace, it's very hard especially when you're thinking about larger companies and things of that sort to not know that there are Muslims that are there, getting to know them. I speak at multiple diversity and inclusion events and the employee resource groups that allow for presentations of Islam and Muslim community are often not very highly attended. It's a small group of people that will take away from their lunch hour to go and attend, but those that do attend come away and like, I've been working with this person for four years, but I never really understood your religion and never really understood who you were as a Muslim and what your concerns about right and left politics, media, the social fabric of America and where you feel welcomed and unwelcomed. I never really got it until now.

Omar Suleiman:
Provoking those conversations, don't force people to have to bring those things up. Ask. Ask people questions. Muslims love to be asked questions without a tone of suspicion. Ask questions.

George Mason:
Honest questions. Open questions.

Omar Suleiman:
Honest questions. Open questions, without the tone of suspicion. And then lastly, George, I'm going to say this, we are at the best version of ourselves when we're serving together. This is my Hurricane Katrina experience, which we're not going to talk about right now because we're at the end of the program, but what I witnessed in Hurricane Katrina of our faith communities coming together to rebuild New Orleans together was the most beautiful expression of human potential and the most beautiful output of faith communities and the most genuine of relationship building that I've ever seen in my life. It was truly beauty after tragedy that just forever imprinted in me this idea that we are best as faith communities when we come together to serve our broader society. What we learn about ourselves in the process and learn about each other in the process is profoundly enriching to us as an individuals and as societies.

George Mason:
Well, Imam Doctor Omar Suleiman you are a gift to us all here in Dallas and as an American and we are grateful for your leadership, for your spiritual leadership, for your friendship and for making us better. Thank you for joining us again on Good God. And because this is-

Omar Suleiman:
I just want to make it clear that you too are a gift. Thank you for being a gift to all of us as well. I really appreciate you.

George Mason:
You're so very welcome. We count on one another, don't we?

Omar Suleiman:
Absolutely.

George Mason:
Well, as this is Friday, the proper way of greeting a Muslim on a Friday might be Jummah Mubarak, right?

Omar Suleiman:
You definitely got all the lingo down, that's great.

George Mason:
Where did I learn it?

Omar Suleiman:
Where did you learn it? I hope it would be that you learned everything about Islam through me, but I know that's not the case.

George Mason:
Well, maybe not, but the point is relationships, right. Wanting to learn and wanting to treat one another with dignity and respect and to be partners in this great American project that is filled with spiritual hope and potential too. Thank you so much, Omar, and God bless you.

Omar Suleiman:
Thank you, George. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3:
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