What's it like to be a Christian in America? with Reverend Virzola Law

Reverend Virzola Law is the senior minister of the Northway Christian Church in Dallas, Texas. Here, she talks with George about her experience as a Christian in America, in light of recent events at the nation’s Capitol.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason. And we are in a series of Good God, that we're calling American Faith, where I'm having conversations with people of different religious traditions in the United States. And they, all of them are local here in Dallas, Texas. But today we're going to talk to the Reverend Virzola Law, who is the senior minister of the Northway Christian Church in Dallas, Texas, and Virzola, first of all, thank you for joining us. We're so glad to have you with us today.

Virzola Law:
My privilege. It's an honor to be with you. I remember meeting you specifically as fresh out of seminary, in about '02, '03, with a group who was traveling around the country of young clergy and excellence in ministry.

George Mason:
That's right.

Virzola Law:
Just come from some kind of health challenge, I believe, but we were learning from Mega Church pastors in how we might be able to soar and not just survive, but thrive in light of what they had to teach us.

George Mason:
Well-

Virzola Law:
[crosstalk 00:01:23]

George Mason:
I'm so glad you were called back to me. And I now remember that conversation too, and that visit, but I should let everyone know that you are the pastor of this church here in Dallas. You're part of a denomination called the Christian Church Disciples of Christ, a graduate of Phillips Theological Seminary in Eden, is it an Eden?

Virzola Law:
It's in Tulsa, Oklahoma now.

George Mason:
It's in Tulsa now, okay?

Virzola Law:
Yeah.

George Mason:
And also studied at Brite Divinity School, but you've been a pastor of three or four churches. And now here you are in the middle of Dallas, at this church that is such a presence for ecumenical and social justice sorts of ministries, interfaith as well. You serve with me and others in Faith Forward Dallas at Thanksgiving Square. And you show up in faith common settings and in other places in Dallas as we work together for the common good. So thank you for this particular conversation. I do want to situate people a little bit as we'd begin, because you are the only other person, besides myself, in this American Faith series, who is a Christian. The reason for that is because we ...

George Mason:
While we have an American legal tradition that includes, of course, the First Amendment that provides for us the guarantee of full religious liberty and legal protections thereof, there is a sense in which, from the beginning, the United States has a self-consciousness that it is largely a Christian nation. Not legally, but culturally you might say. So there are many people who we'll be having conversation with in this American Faith series, who are of other faith, traditions. Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and Sikh and others. And yet you are part of this Christian tradition, and yet I think as an African American woman, pastor in a Christian Church, you have something to say about this experience of not feeling fully enfranchised in your own country, spiritually too. Can you pick up on that a little bit and tell, tell us more?

Virzola Law:
Certainly. I think I knew it, but let's say it was 2009. I was in Israel, Palestine [inaudible 00:04:20] proper with a group. Traveled over there for the better part of two weeks, and a Zionist asked us a similar question. Out of the group, two of us were African-American and everyone else was Anglo. And they were from the United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ, and having this conversation as moderates and progressives do, and they were livid about the treatment of Palestinians and livid about so many of the oppressive pieces happening there in Israel, Palestine. Yet nothing was really being owned about our own challenges of Christianity, these yet to be United States of America.

Virzola Law:
I say, "Yet to be," because the evidence of a January 6th, and just this last year has exposed as the pandemic has exposed, so much has been exposed as the roots, that there might be some healing. And so I jumped up and I said, "Wait a minute now, remember who we are and the ways in which we still have a long way to go and how we have created other kinds of walls and barriers and check points for people, and have systematize race. Even in the name of Jesus Christ, where we don't get to experience the fullness-

George Mason:
Preacher.

Virzola Law:
... and the freedom that Jesus died on the cross for, all of our sins. And even that God in the very beginning created a whole world of flourishing, that we have built systems to keep all of the beloved, from that kind of flourishing." So they rolled their eyes, and was like, "Oh yeah, that part." And so it was in the Holy Land, where I was reminded to deepen and to come back and critique that. So that I wouldn't become that, which I despise, because those who are oppressed, liberation theology teaches us, will also oppress. Until we can open ourselves to more grace, of wisdom. And, I have a sermon I'm working on, to unmute ourselves, because silence is death-dealing.

George Mason:
You raised the point about these yet to be United States. I think in the wake of the January 6th events at the Capitol, we've heard two different statements in America. One by those who would say, "This is not who we are." And then by another group that says, "This is exactly who we are." And in a sense, I think the first group is being aspirational in saying, "This is not our best self." But on the other hand that can often be heard by people who have never felt a full purchase on liberty in this country, a full participation in their citizenship as being a way of denying the work that yet needs to be done.

Virzola Law:
Yeah. When we have so allowed our faith to be co-opted by nationalism, to believe that our hermeneutic, our lens, our particular real estate on God, can be so commodified. And to think that through, it's a superpower, it's a land, this land and power and prestige and privilege and position has been something 5,000 years plus, that we keep having these turf wars. So here we are, a very young nation, in this experiment that is still yet to be. And I believe it. So I was disgusted, just as disappointed.

George Mason:
When we heard people in the rotunda of the Capitol, who had invaded the People's House and they said, these words, "This is our house. This is our country. We own this." What did you hear they meant by that?

Virzola Law:
I've always grown up in multicultural environments and I'm a middle child and only girl. There is something about my siblings, that sometimes we will fight and I know they love me, they don't know how. I know as the middle child, the thing that there's only so much, Walter Brueggemann talks about this scarcity, this theology of scarcity. As they were talking, I was like, "Y'all cannot be serious." But they were. And I really know, and have experienced that, but for so many of my white siblings, my white colleagues. I was actually on a Zoom call, we'd just finished an epiphany service. And I was with some colleagues from across the country, and I was like, "Y'all, they have gone in the house." They thought I meant my house. I was like, "No, go to your TV. They're in the Capitol, they're in the People's House." So it is, that's not of God. That was not of God.

George Mason:
Right, even though they have ...

Virzola Law:
However we think about God, there has to be something in our guts that lets us know. There's something that we can come into some commonality about that, God is mercy. God is kindness. God is justice, and none of that represented that [crosstalk 00:10:12]-

George Mason:
I've been saying to people about our faith as Christians, that one of the ways to test whether you are authentically representing the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that if it's not good news for your neighbor who doesn't believe like you, then it's not the good news of Jesus Christ. But we have fallen into the assumption that this good news, somehow it belongs to us and that it creates a kind of tribe that we are, that we need to protect somehow. That's what seems to be happening in this country right now, is a mentality of Christians who think that it's necessary for us to protect ourselves and to win over against other people who are our neighbors.

George Mason:
I think, my sense is, that when people talk about the church in America today, there are a lot of people who feel excluded, who are part of the church in America. It was almost an entirely white crowd of evangelicals that marched on the capital. I think, there were a lot of black evangelicals even, who are saying, "Wait a minute, that's not us." Don't just say the church, don't just say Christians, don't just say evangelicals. So if we are not including everyone else in this, somehow this makes our faith, I think, questionable in itself.

Virzola Law:
Yeah, it is. It is digging into the faith. As a disciple, we really have a theological spectrum and I happen to pastor in a predominantly white church, but that is diverse and we also house, in part of my staff, we have Latina Church, [inaudible 00:12:29] pastor, who also we work with and journey as church together. In this theological spectrum that we have, that are disciples, this particular brand of Christianity, I'm clear it's only part of it. That there's so much more, because God is so much more creative. And so part of January 6th, and even before January 6th, Psalm 46 has been a real, something that I've held on tom God is refuge, very present, help in time of trouble. Because trouble just keeps coming.

Virzola Law:
A friend's posts said, "So what are y'all preaching? This might be the most important sermon that you preach, January 10th." I was like, "Don't tempt God. And don't tempt people," because these sermons keep coming. I remember from 9/11 on, just every time we come to this, after the Pulse Shooting, after 2016 election, after the 2016 summer, then the pandemic, these Sundays keep coming, because the good news still has to be preached. No doubt. So I think our faith, backed by peace, our faith is calling us. What I love about the Negro, the African-American national Anthem, is, to have hope, when hope unborn had died. And as a black woman, I get to come into a pulpit, that's 114 years old, in a tradition that's over 2000 years old, and they never would have imagined having a pastor as beautiful as I am.

George Mason:
There you go.

Virzola Law:
So that's the liberating gospel.

George Mason:
Correct.

Virzola Law:
That is the transformative work of our faith. And that we get to do it in partnership with other parts of how God expresses God's self and the beloved come to know God and so on. So I get to have a ball, even in the midst, joy is my resistance. That's my superpower, to find some joy in the midst of strife, to believe that Living God loved me, Dying God saved me, and Buried God carried those sins, all of the estrangement far away.

Virzola Law:
But as much we participate, I say dysfunction, this is how we function, as much as we participate in it, there's resurrection. So I am a Christian, because there is something beautiful and glorious about a God who would come from heaven to earth and to show us in the innocence of a baby, where there was no room in the inn, to make people wait and search, to come a year later to bring gifts, who don't even believe.

Virzola Law:
Then as we celebrate that Epiphany of our Lord in this last Sunday, and continue to move, and to, George, to understand that we don't really get to hear anything until we say He grew in stature and favor with God and human. So we don't get to know really much about [inaudible 00:15:39] of ours, until he's 30 and then He has to prove Himself. So I just, when I even study other religions, I honor it, but I know why I am particularly drawn to Christianity, and I'd say it again, because of the way God showed up in my life, and I can touch and I can feel, and that community that comes up draws me to our faith.

George Mason:
So behind your shoulder there, I'm looking at a photograph of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The words, "I have a dream," of course are from his famous speech in Washington DC. And you know, it really was an example of public theology, wasn't it? It was coming directly out of his Christian experience, but I'm taken by the fact that that March on Washington and that moment in our country's history, there were Muslims present there, there were Jews present with him.

George Mason:
It was not only the expression of the African-American church, that was there in that moment. It was a moment of casting a vision for America to live up to and to live into. And I think it is an alternative to what we just saw at the Capitol. So the two visions of America, here is a picture of faith that wants to claim and conquer in a sense, and here is a picture of faith that wants to include and expand. It's extraordinary that both of these are growing out of people who claim the Christian religion, isn't it?

Virzola Law:
It really is. As you think, as King was murdered on the balcony of the Lorraine Motel, a place where I've spent 16 years living in Memphis as a pastor, and the energy and going to that space continued to speak to me. I was born five years after he died on the same date. So April 4th is my birthday. So I sit in and have this space, but the, "I have a dream," was inspired by Prathia Hall through your home. Well, and his work comes out of a community. And as you described, it's a diverse, it's an interfaith community, gets the fullness of not just fight for black folk, not just fight for more folk, not fight for just intellectual, but this sense of who we are as human beings and the [inaudible 00:18:52], the dirt, the cleanness of our lives that needs this communal work together, and then that our faith and our commitment to the principles of nonviolence, to be a principle people.

George Mason:
Yes. Well, and I think you're raising an important point here about the nature of the Christian faith, that we understand the essence of our faith is that it has to work for the people who are left out, who are sidelined and marginalized, who are oppressed. If it doesn't work there, it doesn't work. That it's not an authentic faith. So Jesus, in his first sermon comes out, quoting the prophet Isaiah, and talking about this vision.

George Mason:
This, you could say a dream, about the good news being preached to the poor, and the oppressed being set free and the lame to walk and the blind to see, and all of this, all of this is Jesus' own agenda. That's not something we heard at the Capitol on January 6th. That vision is not something we heard. And so part of what I think we have a charge to do, is to speak this alternative what we believe is the essence of our faith into the larger public square. Because we have to take our place among other religions that oddly enough are actually bringing that very message, which to me shames us, in a sense, doesn't it?

Virzola Law:
Yeah, I have some dear rabbi friends who I called, to [inaudible 00:20:51] source a cliff notes, I had to really get rooted and grounded and dig underneath all the layers of the stuff. It really is to hear Jesus's first sermon in the [inaudible 00:21:05] text, at least, that He comes out, quoting Isaiah, as you said. [Crosstalk 00:21:11] was going on in that day, and to hear how God's spirit is upon Him and what God is calling him to do then. He's asking, "What are the prophets who is calling us?" And how has God's spirit being poured out now?

Virzola Law:
Because we still have good news to proclaim. Poor still need to hear the good news, right? Prisoners still need to get free. The blind still need to see, the oppressed still need to be freed and the exemptible year. Well, this year, last year wasn't exemptible. This year already, these last two weeks feels like a year, it's not exemptible. So we have work to do. And what beautiful, for me what beautiful sense of God that we don't get to have territory, we don't get to commodify that good news. That good news was already given in another faith tradition, because Jesus wasn't Christian.

George Mason:
Well, yeah, it's an odd thing to have to say, but from time to time, Christians ought to remind people that Jesus was a Christian, never was. We are Christians, but Jesus wasn't, and yet that's hard for people to recognize sometimes.

Virzola Law:
And so to really make that connection. And then if we make that connection, how many more connections can we make? So that we hear that good news, fresh? I think, great time to be the church. I think it's a wonderful time to be human, because it if January 6th, if 2020 has taught us anything, we need God, we need each other.

George Mason:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You mentioned Prathia Hall a minute ago. Our friend Courtney Pace has written a book on Prathia. I'm sure you've seen it or read it, but I think the role of black women in the civil rights movement and continuing on today, has been an part of the story that has not been given full weight in terms of the significance of the church. Maybe Stacey Abrams work in Georgia, and the role of black women in our electoral process, in bringing change has reminded people of the importance. But, here we have a woman who is responsible, in fact, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. asked permission of Prathia Hall, to be able to use the, "I have a dream," phrase, because he picked it up from her. Here you are part of that legacy, Virzola. Now where does that name come from, Virzola?

Virzola Law:
Yes, I'm a walking matriarch, so it's Virzola Jo-Nan. So, Vir, is my mother's name, Virginia, Ozola is her biological mother, who died in 2019 at the age of 98. And then Josephine is my dad's mother, who's deceased. And then Nan is my mother's adopted mother who raised her. So I'm literally, the African-American tradition, we tend to say, "Pastor," or, "Reverend," and we name that. In the more progressive mainland Protestant, we call pastors by their first name, I just told them to call me, and sometime they call me [inaudible 00:25:00], just call me, because there is this sense that names matter.

George Mason:
Yeah, and I want people to realize I wasn't being disrespectful.

Virzola Law:
Right, oh absolutely.

George Mason:
We talked about wanting to have you talk about your name before this program, the significance, but I also wanted people to be able to hear something about the importance of our having respect for you, say, for instance, as a black woman preacher, and how challenging that has been over time for people in your role.

Virzola Law:
Certainly.

George Mason:
Where do you sense that is today? And what kind of progress do we need to make there?

Virzola Law:
So I went to school at Jarvis Christian College in East Texas.

George Mason:
Hawkins, Texas.

Virzola Law:
I would be invited to preach, and whenever I would go into these small rural churches, and people don't really know Virzola, was a male or female? Then I get there, and they find out I'm female, and they would say, "Well, now what are we going to do with her?" And so some would put me on the floor to preach.

George Mason:
Oh, my goodness.

Virzola Law:
And some places, after I preached, the pastor would say, "Sis, next time you preach here, you come to the pulpit." But the anointing was on the floor, so I liked floor, because [crosstalk 00:26:24] being among the priesthood. But it's a gift to be able to be a part of the transformative conversation. And to know, I'm a womanist. though, I don't really like labels, because they're limited and limiting. So I'm a womanist, which just means that there are a cloud of witnesses, women who go back before we could be ordained, the ways in which the word of God comes. So we know that there were certain women.

Virzola Law:
And we know [inaudible 00:26:55] what comes out of a tradition where who gets to tell the story first, to help them know that Jesus is alive. It was woman who supported the ministry and who still does. [inaudible 00:27:09] for the women. So there is this tradition of a feminist, that then expands itself in womanism to understand that the issue is not just gender, it's class, it's economics. And our faith, our religion, Michael Eric Dyson says, make our spirituality act right. So I get to borrow from all the tenants of the faith. So we can have this whole sense of beloved as we share Christ with the world and community.

Virzola Law:
So that's me and how we have come to these different pulpits. A lot of womanism comes out of the color purple-genre. We here and if you've ever watched The Color Purple or read it, says, "All my life I had to fight." And so there's this warrior piece of who I am, and who we are as women of faith. But I get to do it in a way where there's some more grace, where there's a little bit more love and there parts of the faith that we just not for thousands of years have been able to talk about. So this whole world is opening up as we get to now open up the circle and the gospel wider. So we can hear those [crosstalk 00:28:26]-

George Mason:
Virzola, I want to say to you too, that while that's true for you, and for many people of color and women, the healing that this represents is broader than that. It's true for me as well. So what happens when we listen to the experience of others, to the biblical interpretation of others, we start to realize that we have borne a weight of trying to enfranchise only a point of view that we unselfconsciously have assumed should come just from people who look like me, in my social location. That has actually impoverished the church.

Virzola Law:
Absolutely.

George Mason:
It has taken away the richness and the breadth and all the diverse voices that are so exciting to begin to hear now, to see now.

Virzola Law:
As you say that, I think about the ways in which I learned the first, the Genesis account of Sarah and Abraham, and Hagar, the ways in which that story unfolds, the traditional way, is Hagar. But this woman who was forced into the situation, they have been now, she's moving and she's begging, "Please don't let my child die." As a black woman understanding that how many times, how many courthouses, how school houses, how many medical places where black women have had to say, "Please, don't let my child die." These systems that were put in place, not only kill the child, but to kill the mom. So as a black woman, getting to reinterpret that text and to give fresh eyes.

George Mason:
Right, and what does the name Ishmael mean?

Virzola Law:
Right.

George Mason:
God hears.

Virzola Law:
God hears.

George Mason:
Right, so there you go,

Virzola Law:
Yeah, absolutely.

George Mason:
Yeah, it's beautiful.

Virzola Law:
Then to come back to these texts and a tradition that's rich, but just like any tradition, if it's not healing and not useful with it needs to be reexamined.

George Mason:
Well, it's all, I'm so grateful to have this conversation with you. To share as the representatives of the Christian religion in our American faith. And I'm so proud to be a colleague of yours in Dallas, and look forward to the work that we will share in, in the years ahead.

Virzola Law:
Well, I'm better. I need you. I love you. I need you to survive. So as the [inaudible 00:31:36] of Christ and part of the human family, I believe this will be one of our best year yet.

George Mason:
Well, let's do it together. And in involve not only just those of us in the Christian Church, but of course, all of our colleagues in the rich interfaith community that is Dallas. I know you join me in that. So thank you for being on Good God.

Virzola Law:
Thank you for inviting me.

George Mason:
All right, God bless you.

Virzola Law:
Blessings.

Speaker 1:
Good God is created by Dr. George Mason. Produced and directed by Jim White. Social media coordination by Cameron Vickery. Good God conversations with George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2021 by Faith Common.