What's it like to be a part of Center for Spiritual Living in America? with Karen Fry

Center for Spiritual Living is part of a branch called New Thought, which teaches something called the Science of Mind. Find out what that entails in this full episode with Reverend Karen Fry.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I am George Mason, your host, and I'm pleased to continue a series of conversations that we've started in a series called American Faith, a way of looking at different faith traditions in America and how they find their place in the constellation of religious life in America. Today I have the privilege of welcoming my friend and local colleague here in Dallas, the Reverend Karen Fry. Karen, thank you for being with us.

Karen Fry:
It is my pleasure, George.

George Mason:
Great. So to introduce you a bit further, Karen is the Co-Spiritual Director of the Center for Spiritual Living here in Dallas. She is Co-Spiritual Director with her wife and partner in both personal and, of course, professional life, the Reverend Doctor Petra Weldes. There's a neat story we were just talking about before the program, in that Karen came long after Petra was already here. And after about a year and a half or so of working together, they fell in love and married and so continue this work as a labor of love as well as a labor of work. Karen, we are colleagues in faith-forward Dallas at Thanksgiving Square and have worked together in that interfaith group, because Dallas has a really vibrant interfaith clergy in faith community. One that has not been explored tremendously until about the last five years or so. We've been very grateful to have Thanksgiving Square help to spawn that and to host it.

George Mason:
You and I have been in leadership roles with that group. But the Center for Spiritual Living is probably something that is a bit of a mystery to many people that would be part of our audience. So I'd love for you to give us a little bit of a history of what its spiritual tradition is and its place in religious life in America.

Karen Fry:
Beautiful. I'd love to. In as well and good of a summary as I can, it actually, it's part of a faith tradition. The larger branch of it's called New Thought. It actually spawned in this country some over a hundred years ago, and specifically in New Thought, Center for Spiritual Living teaches and practices something called the Science of Mind. It was founded by Dr. Ernest Holmes. It's part of the New Thought spiritual tradition and it's a positive, practical spirituality. What it does is it draws from the revelations of both Western and Eastern religion. It draws from the opinions of philosophy, the laws of science, the practices of psychology and it applies it to the human needs as well as the aspirations of humanity. And that vision that we hold is the aspiration of humanity is this is a world that works for everyone and a life that works for me.

Karen Fry:
It's great thoughts of the ages and the deep mystical yearnings of minds and search for God. It's a modern approach to faith, which can be demonstrated, which can be proven and which truly does transform one's life. We teach and practice the Science of Mind. It's roots are Christian, but like I said, it does take the revelations from the Western and the Eastern main religious traditions. That would be the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and the Bhagavad Gita. I don't know that anyone has said this with you before. Our source text, which is the Science Mind Textbook, you would find it very familiar in that you couldn't turn two pages maximum without seeing and reading and embracing the teachings of Jesus. We have Christian roots. For me, I came from deep Christian roots and still hold those roots, never left those roots.

Karen Fry:
It's an expansion of those roots and especially the teachings of Jesus as it relates to the kingdom of heaven is within, meaning the power is within me. I am that. I am that power. I am that presence. I am it. And that the big one is, it is done unto me as I believe. I guess it's challenging. One couldn't really put us in a box. But it's like that golden thread, if one would bring out the best of the best of the best and then have teachings and practices, including nature, nature's in there through Emerson and Thoreau and especially science. That's why it's called the Science of Mind. And mind is the all thing, the is-ness, God, spirit, the thing itself. Can we put a science to it? Can we replicate it? Can we duplicate it?

George Mason:
When I listen to you talk about all of that, what I hear is echoes of some other traditions that sprung up around the same time, I would say, in American life. That is groups like the Unitarian Universalists, who similarly would describe the various traditions of scriptures in different religions that they would draw upon, the Unity Church, Mary Baker Eddy's movement, the Church of Christ, Scientist. Do you see yourself in a constellation, in a community of likeness to a group that might be categorized more in terms of what may be transcendentalists or something of that nature? How would you situate CSL?

Karen Fry:
You did a very good job. New thought, so Unity, Mary Baker Eddy, the Christian Scientist. There are also independents, but it's under this umbrella. I would not put the Universal Unitarians in that, although they're not far stretched. So yes, we are in that branch of the Tree of Life called New Thought. If you want your life to change, it's this thought is causal. I am fully responsible for the causality of my life, because God is causal. So there's not two things happening here. There's only one. There's no duality. So yes, New Thought, we're kissing cousins to all of those that you mentioned.

George Mason:
Okay. Then when you think of yourself in relationship to other religious groups in the country, do you find that you have a challenge of constantly having to interpret your place in it? Because you are not specifically a church, but you draw upon Christian tradition. You're not really Christian, per se. You may self identify to some degree like that, but others shouldn't put that on you. How would you describe what the lived experience is of being a practitioner of Spiritual Living in the way you are vis-a-vis other religious traditions?

Karen Fry:
That's a great question. I will say that if you were to ask this of anyone in our movement, within our "denomination," you might get different answers. There's the juxtaposition. I think you're asking how is it to find our place? It's sometimes challenging. It's overshadowing. It's the you-don't-belong. It's the "Oh, but you don't believe what I believe." And I'm like, "Oh, I can go toe to toe with you on the teachings of Jesus," especially from the metaphysical mystical standpoint and probably be right there with you and more. So that's challenging when someone says, "Well, you don't believe as me." Like in most things, George, we have more similarities than we have differences. We truly do.

Karen Fry:
Actually, when Ernest Holmes found this it was never meant to be "a religion." We are a teaching in a healing order, true healings. It was intended for you and anyone else, wherever you are in your faith, wherever you are in your beliefs, to enable you to go deeper and wider than them. It is challenging. I think that would be challenging as we know for anyone in a minority. We are certainly considered a minority faith-based tradition in this country.

George Mason:
Right. But having said that, in all of our traditions there is a mystical dimension to it that you tap into very deliberately. In Islam, the Sufi tradition, for instance, would be part of that. You just mentioned various ways in which Christians... There's also even very much a Franciscan mystical tradition among Catholics. Obviously, the Kabbalah in Hebrew, in Judaism. So there is a mystical dimension to a lot of our faiths. But what I find interesting about our work together is that while that may be a very core aspect of your identity and practice, nonetheless, you have very much a passion for social justice and for being actively engaged in seeking to change the structures of injustice that exist in our society.

George Mason:
Now, someone might not easily line up those two things, because you might say our tradition specializes the deeply personal aspects of healing, of relating to the essence of God and of reality being love and these sorts of things. And yet I find you in the street ready to speak and act on behalf of others for a more just society. Do they go hand in hand throughout your movement? Or, is that more Karen than it is the group in itself?

Karen Fry:
There are many of us that that goes hand in hand with. It's not specific to Karen, but it's a passion. Again, a lot of it is based on consciousness as causal. So some people go, "But I'm being causal in my consciousness as I hold the vision for this world that works for everyone, as I hold the vision for everyone has the abundance of the universe and experiences it and gets to participate in it." There are some people that that's their calling. I'm also, as we like to say, treat meaning, pray, and move our feet. So there's also being on the field of that. The truth is, I am a wave in this ocean, as are you. This ocean is God in this divine oceanic substance. You cannot pull me out of the ocean. Try to pull a wave out of the ocean. You can't. Therefore, everything that's taking place in this ocean impacts me, affects me as it does you. You are me and I am you. I love my neighbor as myself.

Karen Fry:
I must love me to the fullest extent. And I must love you to the fullest extent. Therefore, I must stand up with and for you. I don't like standing against anything. Or as [inaudible 00:14:11] said, "Find me a thousand people that are one person actually. Find me one person that stands for something. And again, it's nothing and you will find another Jesus." We really try not to stand against, and that language is hard in social justice work.

George Mason:
Right. It really is. Because when we find ourselves speaking in a manner of protest or of trying to change the way policing is done say, or the way the judicial system operates, the way we distribute resources to the schools or whatever the case may be, it often sounds like we are standing primarily against those who have the power to affect change. Whether because of money or position or elected office or whatever the case. But I think you really put your finger on it. Anyone who is working on these things will be ineffective if they can't articulate the fact that when they are speaking, they are actually speaking on behalf of and for someone who has been deprived of what is they're divinely gifted right. So what feels like a kind of chronic chirping of people who are activists, you might say, or advocates is really this ache in the heart of religious leaders to see that people who are deprived of their full creative identity get to have a share and experience it with other people.

George Mason:
So how do you experience your life as a faith leader in Dallas? Because you have a place at the table in faith-forward Dallas. But it's only been a few years that we've had this organization. Has it been a growing enfranchisement that you have felt? Is there still work to be done in that regard?

Karen Fry:
I do believe that it's growing. I do believe that our city is rapidly changing. Of course, I know like you, we would like for it to change a little faster. I don't want to say change. I actually want it to transform. Change, it can come and go. Transformation is permanent. It's like the butterfly. You can't go back to the caterpillar. So even being embraced by faith-forward Dallas, and being able to be with colleagues like you and be at the table, speaks highly of Dallas. I believe that the soul is growing with Dallas. I think we, as faith leaders, we're no longer focused on "the differences of our faith" and what can we collectively do together. We're focusing on what we have in common. I think the more we do that in this city as citizens, and to know that there's nothing for the people that feel like they're going to lose something. We lose it every day.

Karen Fry:
We're losing it every day when the ocean is not healthy. It's being lost every day. I'm not an ally in order to help raise someone up. I'm an ally because we're so interconnected and entwined that until we get this right, I'm not living my full best life either.

George Mason:
Right. Right. You raise a really interesting point about this. The nature of reality is that you have to lose in order to thrive. Jesus says that unless you deny yourself and take up your cross and follow me, and there's this sense of unless you lose your life, you cannot find it. This is one of the dangers I think that we're seeing in American religion right now with the people who have marched on the Capitol and said that this country belongs to us. They are playing a zero sum game. They are fearful of losing and yet not just Christians, but as you said, at the very heart of reality, and this is at the heart of every religious tradition. There is this sense that you cannot just grow and gain for yourself and thrive. There has to be this reciprocal kind of sense of giving and receiving.

Karen Fry:
Yes. There is a law of cause and effect, at least we would [inaudible 00:19:40] that. Giving and receiving is actually the same and to be reciprocal. It's like the tide can't just keep coming in. It must go out, right?

George Mason:
Right. So where do you think we are in Dallas, Texas right now? What do you see as the big challenges that the faith community is addressing, that we are seeking to mobilize for the common good?

Karen Fry:
One of our biggest challenges and... Well, I can't use the word biggest. So some of the challenges is that no one should be unsheltered. I believe that words have power. I try to choose my words carefully. I don't choose homelessness. The unsheltered, that no one should be unsheltered. Everyone should have a roof over their head, food on their table, education to the highest level for their children. We have a ways to go with that, to be inclusive. I mean, my goodness, Jesus was the most inclusive person that walked the earth thousands of years ago, to be inclusive and to welcome everyone at the table and to do whatever we can so that they have a seat at the table. We still have much work to do in making it as equitable in this city for people, no matter what the color of their skin there is, no matter what physical capacity they have, no matter what socioeconomic stance they have, no matter, no matter, no matter, really.

Karen Fry:
And to continue to eradicate this notion that there actually is an other, anywhere in this city. It has to be eradicated in each of us because we come from lineage and lineage of lineage of stuff being made up to say, "But you're the other." It sparks in our religions. That's the issue. The religions have said, "You're the other." All of our religions, actually, they're not based on that. They've been misconstrued and mis-taught.

George Mason:
Right. In many of our faith traditions, there are themes about our being chosen, about our being elected, about our being a select or unique or a peculiar people unto God. I think that the things that you're saying here about, there's a shadow side to that beautiful sense of a people believing that God has uniquely come to them in a way that calls them to a certain mission to the world. That's a beautiful part of the notion of chosen-ness. It's not a chosen-ness to be self-possessed, but a chosen-ness to be enlightened in such a way that you then carry that word to everyone else who is chosen in a sense. But the shadow side of that chosen-ness is often that feeling that someone else is other to you, and you can only actually hold your faith if you can distinguish it from someone else who is outside of it. And that's the trick, isn't it? How do you have your own unique faith tradition and cherish it, but not other someone, to use your language, at the same time?

Karen Fry:
Yes. Great point. Great point, George. And us as individuals, I'm watching this with my nine month old granddaughter. I didn't have children. I have two granddaughters, but one since birth and I've watched it. And just in the past couple of weeks you know how children come in and I saw the shine start to dim. I think that, be like little children the master teacher says. We have to choose ourselves first, like really wholly. I mean like W-H-O-L-L-Y and H-O-L-L-Y, to wholly love ourselves first. When we do that and fully accept ourselves and to know ourselves, I think the more that each of us do this, then the less we project, the less we judge, the less you're the other.

Karen Fry:
I found this along the way in my time here in Dallas. I know that that was it for me. I had not fully chosen me. Therefore, how could I fully choose you as a child? Or, we say an individualized expression of God, not an offspring, but an individualized expression.

George Mason:
When someone says what you just said, I think they often might hear that as a me-ism, a selfishness or something like that. But if you frame it with people and say, "Unless you become, self-consciously aware that you are a beloved child and that you deserve to be loved, then your own woundedness can wound others." I don't think it's true that it's just axiomatic that we talk about how hurt people hurt, or abused people abuse. That's often true, but it's also true that some of the tenderest, most loving people are those who become aware of the fact that they don't deserve to have been abused, to have been hurt. Then they become some of the most compassionate and empathetic people. This notion that you're talking about of mindfulness and of healing is an important part of being able to love our neighbor.

Karen Fry:
Yes. Thank you for making sure that distinction was made.

George Mason:
You're so welcome. Well, Karen, it's a delight to serve with you and to learn more about your practitioner work in Spiritual Living. Thank you for what you mean to our community and in your personal friendship, too.

Karen Fry:
Thank you, George.

George Mason:
All right.

Karen Fry:
It's so great to-

George Mason:
Take care.

Karen Fry:
Thank you.

George Mason:
God bless you.

Announcer:
Good God is created by Dr. George Mason, produced and directed by Jim White, Social Media Coordination by Cameron Vickrey. Good God, Conversations with George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God and faith and the common good. All material copyright 2021 by Faith Commons.