Rabbi David Segal on the recent session of the Texas Legislature

Rabbi David Segal on the recent session of the Texas Legislature, and the expectations of Jewish politicians.

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George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason. And I'm pleased to welcome for this series we are doing on Good Politics, Rabbi David Segal. He is lead organizer of the Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism in their Houston base. And so we're delighted to have you, David, with us today.

David Segal:
Thank you. It's great to be here.

George Mason:
So we've been working together for the past several months through the Better Texas Interfaith Coalition that we've put together that has been kind of sharing notes and collaborating on legislative strategy in Texas. And so, we've been able to get to know one another as different faith groups that do advocacy work, have come together around the common good here in Texas. And I think people would be interested to know more about the Religious Action Center and how it functions as a faith-based advocacy group. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

David Segal:
Yes. The Religious Action Center sometimes known in our circles as the RAC has been around since the early '60s, really the middle of the civil rights movement of that era. When the leaders of what was then called the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, that was the name that Reform Judaism had at the time as a denominational movement, they decided they needed to have, we needed to have our voice in Washington basically, advocating for these most important moral issues at the time. Really in the tradition of the biblical prophets speaking truth to powers, speaking out about justice, speaking out to protect the widow and the orphan and the stranger, and those kinds of ancient principles that we consider to be core to the Jewish faith.

David Segal:
And so there was a center started in Washington, understood to be our social action, social justice advocacy arm for a national event to the seat of power in our country. And over the years, that has expanded in different ways. And really in the last decade or so, we have launched a number of state projects. We're now actually actively working in eight states, soon to be nine where we organize not only for federal advocacy, which has been our historical approach, but also working toward legislative and other kinds of justice work and wins at the local and state level. And certainly, Texas has its unique cycle and that we can focus on that for half a year every other year. And then, it presents an challenge and opportunity in terms of how do we apply those values in that work when the legislature's not in session.

George Mason:
So as a Christian and a Baptist kind of Christian of the particular kind of Baptist, also I would say, the aims and approach of RAC are not foreign to me because of the worldview and orientation I have in my own state. Then we find much common cause, but in our own tradition of being Christian, that's not universally true. We have many Christians for whom the Christian life is mostly about an individual piety of finding one's place of during time into eternity. But the idea of engaging in public life and public advocacy and political, the political sphere, that's sort of an optional thing.

George Mason:
But, so we have to make this case. I think most people probably know that to say that you are a Jew doesn't necessarily answer the question of what that means, because there are just as there are many kinds of Baptists, there are many kinds of Jews, right? But in the Reform Jewish tradition, this notion of being engaged in public life and advocacy is pretty much baked in, isn't it? I mean, it's endemic to the nature of the Reform Jewish outlook. Tikkun olam, the repair of the world is very central to the faith, right?

David Segal:
Yes. And interesting that term itself has an interesting history, which I won't go too deep into. But the idea of Tikkun olam or [foreign language 00:04:53], to repair the world, that idea exists in our tradition to the most ancient of the rabbinic discussion and finds its way into Kabbalistic mystical tradition and then into Hasidic tradition where it means every mitzvah that you do, every commandment that you fulfill brings the shattered sparks of God's presence one step closer to reuniting. And we take that as Reform Jews, I think we take that into a kind of repair of society angle. And to the extent that we believe in Messianism, which is a core belief of Judaism, right? That we do await a Messiah.

David Segal:
In reform Judaism, it tends to be in the form of a Messianic age where we'll have an end of war and an end of disease and an end of injustice. I say, we're less focused on a particular individual who's going to be a Messiah, but we do cast it in terms of always working toward that perfectibility of society. Even though we may also think we'll never quite get there, but we have to keep going. So yeah, it's definitely in our core, in our DNA as Reform Jews. And I think it's also tied up with this, not just the doctrine and belief, but also the story, in particular Jews in America.

David Segal:
And this is my own family as an example, my grandparents on my mother's side immigrated before World War II. During that, 1880, 1920, stretch of Eastern European sort of peak immigration. And they came as children with their families. And the way... And my dad's grandparents actually come the generation previously. But the way that the story was always told was that they found opportunity here. They found a haven here. They found a place that allowed them to be Jews the way they wanted to be Jews. And in the next breath was always. And so, we are responsible citizens and we continue working. We do our part to contribute to society. And that took a lot of forms in terms of my own family story growing up. But I guess both personally that idea of being engaged in public life, I sort of took for granted just because I saw my parents actively involved in politics or in a nonprofit board or always members of the synagogue, which in a way was like part of our civic responsibility.

David Segal:
As much as we believed in being Jewish and going to synagogue and participating in the community faith that way, it also is part of this fabric of what does it mean to be a good citizen? You join a synagogue. This is what you do to support your community. And looking back on it now, I actually think that's really profound, even though we're moving away from affiliation rates, whether you're a Baptist or Jewish or anything else.

George Mason:
Of course, and that depends. Yeah.

David Segal:
But I really, maybe I'm old fashioned in the sense that I think there's something about being attached to those institutions that really just help shape us as people. And I think part of it also is another understanding that's deeply embedded in our tradition that we are all political beings, whether or not you want to bother with the mess of politics. I guess that's sort of up to you. But it's going to mess with you whether you want to mess with it or not.

David Segal:
And I thought personal salvation piece is really interesting because we get that's not unique to Christianity actually, we get that. I think in Jewish community, some of the pushback we get is keep politics out of this congregation. We're just here to pray and we're here to study. And tell me about Judaism. Don't tell me about politics. Well, I get it because you don't want to just like be read the New York Times editorial page when you walk into synagogue as the sermon. On the other hand, I don't think we can completely shut out that outside world. So, I think why I think pulpit clergy is one of the toughest balancing acts is you have to figure out a way to live in that space and push it up [crosstalk 00:09:05].

George Mason:
And you've done that as well. Now you're working in this sphere more specifically, but I think this congregational life that you're talking about, and I'm glad you're old fashioned about that, I am too, but I think part of the reason it's so critical that we maintain that is that it's a kind of a buffer in a society, isn't it? I mean, it's a place where we can model and practice the politics that we then are engaging with our neighbors about. And if we can't do it at home, right? Where we have some differences, whether in our families or in our congregations. And every congregation is not homogeneous, God knows, right? And Judaism is becoming even more diverse racially and ethnically as well these days. So if you can do it in a congregational life, then you have a moral authority and you've also been practiced it that you can go into public life, right?

David Segal:
Yes. But I think there was a time when church, synagogue, whatever was the institution provided that, and in some corners still does. It was a place where you encountered people who were different. And maybe to the outside observer, they all look the same. But there actually a lot of differences that are mediated by a faith community. One of the most fascinating studies I saw on that was actually in an argument with a very right-wing [inaudible 00:10:33] I had my document pulled up in Colorado. But we had this really interesting dialogue about how, when it comes to Muslim extremism, being a member of a mosque is actually a moderating influence. And the same is true by the way for Christians, that... And this is on the analysis around the 2016 election in particular. This category of the unchurched the evangelical, people who'd identify as evangelical or at least check the beliefs that would kind of align with that. But they aren't part of a faith community.

David Segal:
And also learning from an old friend who is a devout conservative Christian and deeply committed to community that there's something very dangerous about having the doctrine without the community mediation. And I had never really thought about that before, but I think it's a profound challenge. And I understand why people are disconnecting from institutions and don't like what, how's the worship or offering. I get the rise of the nones as they call them and all that stuff that Pew talks about. But there's a trade-off, I guess. I'll put up with that-

George Mason:
Unfortunately, some of the more recent data in Robert Jones book, White Too Long recently, his research shows that in the evangelical world, being part of an active part of the congregation has intensified the partisanship and the [inaudible 00:12:05]. So that's actually a fairly new trend and a dangerous one, I think too, and one that we need to take up. But-

David Segal:
I need to look into that. That says to me that sort of toxic polarization is seeping into our churches and synagogues.

George Mason:
I'm afraid it's actually true. Well, let's talk for a few moments about when you engage at the Texas state legislature, for instance, and we can pick an issue or just speak in general. You know I know, and I think many Christians know when they go talk to a senator or a representative there about a particular issue who may take a Bible verse with us or we may take a kind of risk sort of moral authority that comes from our biblical tradition and use that to say, we really want you to vote this way or we believe this bill is good or bad on their spaces. How does RAC do so? How do you engage? How do you equip people who you are mobilizing to participate in this conversation from your spiritual tradition? And do you find that to be similar or different because you're coming at it from a different religious position than maybe the majority of Texans are?

David Segal:
Yeah, that is a good question. We wrestle at that. We do feel it's important to identify ourselves and root ourselves in Jewish tradition and Reform Jewish values, as the phrase we use a lot in terms of how we frame that. And I think there's a little couple sentences in our one-page leave-behind that talk about our traditions commitment in the case of voting rights to the importance of voices being heard in community and leaders being held responsible. And so, we're always connecting that. And we have a longer set of sources that a couple of our rabbis in the state put together to help with study programs around, how is this a Jewish issue? We did that two years ago with public education, put together a source packet. And that's biblical sources, rabbinic texts, modern commentary, whole range of sources that point to not a specific policy position necessarily, but a kind of slant or an orientation or why we should care about this issues.

David Segal:
One thing I will say that is sometimes happens is when we go to certain members of the legislature, federal or state, and as an self-identifying Jewish group, they assume immediately that we want to talk about Israel and Israel policy because they're used to Jewish groups doing that or that's just their assumption or whatever. And I won't name names at the moment, but I've heard of constituents going in and actually getting rude/off-putting reactions when they actually wanted to talk about expanding Medicaid or reproductive rights or whatever other set of issues. And a member of Congress saying, but you're Jews, you should be talking about Israel policy and supporting Israel. It's like, well, we care about that too, but that's not what this meeting is about at the moment.

George Mason:
Yeah. So if you're Jews, you have to be singly focused. You can't actually be present where you are and care about the common good here. It has to be about adopting that particular foreign policy connection. Fascinating.

David Segal:
Yes, we do get that a lot. And I also think the other challenge is we're always... We want to assert that identity and bring that moral and ancient voice to the legislature and to the public spirit, but also know that from a strategic point of view, that versus not going to convince a legislator to vote a certain way. Although I will say, and I've learned from Pastor Charlie Johnson of Pastor for Texas Children, he spends a lot of time talking to legislators. And I think it's some of the more informal chatting about... And he's talked to me about the conversations he have with Senator Kel Seliger, the only Jewish member of the Texas Senate. They'll have some really interesting theological conversations back and forth.

David Segal:
And I won't say that it has changed a vote necessarily, but I think it's broadened perspectives between the two of them. And if you're in it for a long game, those things matter. You build the relationships. He's definitely mastered that anyway, but I think there's an aspect of that. And also then, how do we bridge the gap between our religious framing and kind of public good argument or commitment that I think also has to be part of the conversation.

George Mason:
Well, and for Christians even when we engage in that way, one of the things I find is using the Hebrew Bible is a real advantage for us because it is also part of our Bible, but it's not exclusive to us. So, there's a kind of openness and invitation. But the truth is that the Hebrew Bible itself, the scripture itself is only one part of your Bible, so to speak. I mean, the thing I think most people don't understand is just how fluid is or how broad is your sense of authority in terms of the scripture itself is one thing and the Talmud and the rabbinic tradition and the arguments about the texts and those sorts of things. All part of your resource of scripture, right?

David Segal:
Right. Yes. Centuries upon centuries of layers of commentary.

George Mason:
Right. So, there's a kind of... One of the things I love when I'm talking with my partner, Nancy Kasten, Rabbi Kasten as you know, is I always feel like I'm entering into a very old conversation, right? That this is not something new where we're skipping over centuries, but we're actually just continuing a conversation. It's a fascinating, wonderful experience. So, yeah.

David Segal:
I like it that way. Yeah. I like that way of thinking about it.

George Mason:
So David, let's be specific about Texas for just a few moments that we have remaining and say, what have you seen happening in the Texas state legislature this year that maybe has been the biggest challenge to you? I think for many of us sort of a similar worldview, it's been incredibly challenging session. And any signs of hope, anything that you're going to take away and say, okay, there's something to work with you.

David Segal:
We're beginning to ask those questions within our leadership group too as we near the end of this, at least the regular session. Of course, there's special session blooming on the horizon. We have been primarily focused on question of democracy and voting rights. And it has been very challenging in that regard as the... Seems like enough of the leadership of the legislature is really fixated on... How should I put it? Fixing a problem that doesn't really exist. And there's a letter that we just signed on to last night of this election reform coalition that we're a part of that says something in one paragraph, like if they were really serious about election security and election integrity, there are really known good solid ways to shore it up. None of which are really being talked about this session. Things like online voter registration, which all that I think nine states already have.

David Segal:
And paper trails, there's some other auditing. There are specific pieces and they seem, the ones who were the architects of this bill, which by the way, I think has some national lobbying money behind it anyway and language, frankly. They're intent on, I don't know, maybe the political analysis they think is important for their base. And they're worried about primary challenges. I think maybe that's part of it. So, that's not encouraging. I think reasons for hope. I think actually the house speaker and house leadership has kind of shown some common sense, good governance. Some of which is letting some of the worst Senate bills die. Letting them get pretty far, but then eventually die in various ways. And wanting to keep to the business of the state. I think I do give Speaker Phelan credit for his priority to criminal justice bill and some of the healthcare. Although, healthcare is a minimally what they could be doing. It could be much more in terms of expanding coverage. But we will see.

David Segal:
I mean, at this point, the river's going to hit the road on the voting rights piece in litigation once whatever bill gets passed, when it does get passed. I would say another reason for hope is just what I hear from folks in the coalition I'm part of who say, this has been the most groups that have worked together like this in any session names. They worked here. And I'm newer to the work, at least in Texas. So, hearing that perspective is helpful. Maybe there's a positive trend in that direction.

George Mason:
So when you talk to people in your tradition and you try to mobilize them to engage in this process, what sort of things do you say? And how do you help people move from, yes, I'm concerned about this, but I don't really know how my personal engagement really makes a difference? What are the ways you help bridge that gap between what I would call the Pew and the Capitol?

David Segal:
That's a great question. And some of that is the central question of organizing and community organizing. And some of it is doing the slow ground work within our congregations of training them, training leaders, training them to find additional leaders, to put a team together with people who care. And the key is, one of the key is this. We don't... The single issue, activists are not necessarily the most helpful in this work. What we really need are people who are committed to making a difference in some meaningful way and are open and curious and learners. And we often say the most diehard left-wing or right-wing activists are probably going to be a problem at this phase of the work, because they're going to want to just do it this way. And we want to have a broader conversation about where can we make an impact right now and what's the longterm strategy for relationship building and impact.

David Segal:
And that's hard also because it means saying no to certain things, at least right now. We went through a whole process where we ended up on voting rights as our primary campaign. And that meant we're not putting all our attention into Medicaid expansion. We didn't put all our attention into reproductive rights or gun safety or any number of urgent and important things. And that culture shift is also really hard to teach. That if we're going to make a difference on one thing, we can't do everything at the same time. And I think what people who step into this work and actually really taken on, there are people who see, or there's a real opportunity for action here. This is not just speaking truth to power, which can be its own kind of self-congratulatory act. But this is strategic. We have a plan. Are we going to win? We don't know. But at least we know where we're headed and we're seeing movement.

George Mason:
And sometimes small wins instead of big wins is something that I think for people get deeply involved and they want to support this whole bill. And then, it gets eroded by compromises and it hardly looks like the bill that it started out to be. And then you say to yourself, well, do we just give up in despair or are we thankful that we got what we got, right? So, that's part of I think the struggle of engagement is there's a... You got to keep hope alive, I suppose, to quote a phrase, right?

David Segal:
Yes, that's right. And we've working with our team and our volunteers to redefine or just broaden what success looks like. It's bigger than just, did the bill got win or not, or did you defeat it or not? It's, did we build meaningful coalitions across lines of difference, faith, class, and race? Did we bring new leaders in and given opportunities to exercise that leadership? Are we in a stronger position for the next legislative session than we were before? And I think in all of those areas, we have definitive checks in the box. Some version of the bill, SB7 is going to pass. I'm convinced at this point. But it did get watered down a little bit. So that, we'll take a little check mark in that palm. I mean, we didn't do that alone. Of course, don't get me wrong.

George Mason:
Right. Well, David, thank you for all the work that you do. And it's been fun to be partners with you in this session. And I know that you'll be going on to some other things soon as well. But we are so grateful for all that you've done in the sense that even across our differences, we found common cause. And that's terrific. So, thanks for your work.

David Segal:
Thank you. Thanks for this conversation and for everything you're doing to really highlight faith and faith activism at the forefront in Texas. So, looking forward to ongoing partnership.

George Mason:
Terrific. Thanks very much.

Speaker 3:
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