Mitri Raheb can say his ancestors may have babysat Jesus

Mitri Raheb is a Palestinian Christian, born in Bethlehem across the street from where Jesus was born. He speaks on the conflict between Israel and Palestine and his creation of interfaith communities that respond to Palestinian suffering through art.

Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.

George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to our program today a friend from across the sea. This is the Reverend Professor Dr. Mitri Raheb. Mitri, we're so happy to have you here. Dr. Raheb is from Bethlehem... that is Bethlehem Palestine... and we are so glad that we have the opportunity to have this conversation. Welcome to Good God.

Mitri Raheb:
Thank you, George. Great to be with you.

George Mason:
Wonderful. So we talked in church this morning... and he was our guest here at Wilshire Baptist Church...and about this new book, The Politics of Persecution. The subtitle being Middle Eastern Christians in an Age of Empire. But you have all the moral authority to write a book like this because it comes out of the very dirt of the land that is in question. This is from your experience. When we hear talking heads on cable networks and when we hear preachers in America often talking about the Holy Land, there is a sense that there is a kind of authority that they have sometimes without ever having been there or lived there. And so hearing from your perspective as a Christian from Palestine is important. I think everyone would like to know. How did you get there to Bethlehem? Did you follow a star to Bethlehem or do you want to tell us the actual truth about that?

Mitri Raheb:
Yeah. I think, many people, they have forgotten that Christianity started in Palestine. That Jesus was born in Bethlehem, Palestine, not Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and that the Bible did not originate in the Bible Belt. Thank God. Right. For the last 2000 years, there has been a Christian community living in Palestine and throughout the Middle East, in spite of all the ups and downs of history and of politics that we went through. So the Palestinian Christian community is one of the oldest Christian communities in the world. For us, it's important that these are our roots, this is our history, but also, hopefully, this is our future. This is what we are committed to. To make sure that Christianity will not only survive, but thrive in Palestine and throughout the Middle East.

George Mason:
You say that Christianity has been continuously present in Palestine since the very beginning of the church. In fact, you mentioned this morning that you were born probably across the street from where Jesus was born.

Mitri Raheb:
I mean, literally across the street.

George Mason:
Literally across the street. This is something that I think many people in their imagination don't really gather. They might be surprised to understand such a thing, right?

Mitri Raheb:
Yeah. I mean, sometimes when I'm traveling throughout the US, people ask me, "Tell us. When did your family convert to Christianity?" Assuming that maybe we used to be Muslims or heathens or whatever, who are converted to Christianity by some missionaries. Baptist missionaries or whatever from the Midwest. I like always to tease them by saying... Because I was born across the street from where Jesus was born, I like to tell them, "Probably one of my grand-grandmas used to babysit for Jesus." So we have that long history with Jesus. He's a neighbor, he's a countryman, but also a savior.

George Mason:
I think it's important probably for many people to get a sense that to be Palestinian as a terminology is to have been born in this land of Palestine, which now technically is labeled such as the area of the West Bank and also the Gaza strip. The Palestinian Territories. It is not wrong to say that all of that area that includes the state of Israel is historically Palestine, right?

Mitri Raheb:
That's historic Palestine.

George Mason:
But nowadays, when we use that terminology, we do so more politically and geographically to describe the reality on the ground, right?

Mitri Raheb:
Correct. But there are also Palestinian Christians living inside Israel. In Nazareth, in Haifa, in Jaffa, in upper Galilee. They are Palestinians, though Israeli citizens.

George Mason:
Yes. And this is where it gets confusing, right?

Mitri Raheb:
Right, exactly. And so I always like to say... I mean, Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. Now, people today think being Palestinian and being Jewish is like a contradiction in itself, but it's not because Palestine was always a country with several religions. Always pluralistic. I mean, at the time of Jesus, there were the Samaritans, but also there were the Canaanites. I mean, Jesus meeting the Canaanite woman. We forget about that. So it's a multi-faith country. Even when the Byzantine took over and became Christian, still there were people of other faiths living there. And when the Arabs came and the majority became Muslim, there were still Jews and Christians. So I think we have to distinguish between Palestine as a country, historic Palestine, and the different identities and religions and ethnicities that were there.

George Mason:
This is challenging even in the state of Israel, where Israel is both a Jewish nation and a democracy and they are wrestling with whether they can be both of those things given that many of our friends, including Christian friends, Palestinian Arab friends, who live in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth, not where he was born in Bethlehem, where you reside... They feel often like there are advantages for them to be Israeli citizens on the one hand, but they do not feel that they are always treated as if they are full-fledged Israeli citizens on the other.

Mitri Raheb:
Correct. Because Israel, especially a few years ago, they had this nation state law, which says basically that Israel is mainly the homeland for the Jews. And so Christians and Muslims, they are basically second-class citizen. I mean, today, many rights organizations are talking about it, even describing it as apartheid.

George Mason:
This is something that I think we are seeing the rise of even as... Democracy seemed to have swept across the globe in a large way for a long period of time, but then there came to be a backlash against it. What we're seeing with nationalism in Russia now and even in the United States. What makes you the most culturally acceptable part of the nation you're living in? In America, that would be... White evangelical Christians, to a large extent, make the claim that they really define who America is. And yet here we are, this tremendously pluralistic nation, even with the ideals that we should be such. And yet there's a tension here. So Israel is wrestling with that as well. But within the Palestinian community, I think... As a Christian, you are a very small minority among Palestinians too, right? So how is the Palestinian delegation, in a sense, dealing with that very issue?

Mitri Raheb:
Christians in Palestine now... Palestine, meaning West Bank, Gaza... They make 1.7% of the population. Inside Israel, they make 1.3% of the population. So numerically, we are small in number, and yet actually, Christians, especially in the West Bank and Gaza, continue to play a major role. We did a study just last year. There are 296 church-related organizations working in the West Bank and Gaza.

George Mason:
Wow. 296 church-related organizations.

Mitri Raheb:
And guess what? It was, even for me, a surprise. This church-related organization, if we take them together, they are the third employer in Palestine after the government and the UNRWA, which is the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. They employ around 10000 people, though they are all together less than 50000 people. And they pump into the economy around $500 million a year, which is the same amount almost of money that the Palestinian authority received from the donor agencies, including the US. So, I mean, the impact of the churches is... Especially in the field of education and in the field of health.

Mitri Raheb:
If I take Bethlehem as an example, in Bethlehem, we have four universities and colleges. Three universities, one college. Our university is one of them. Three out of the four are Christian. One run by the Catholics, Bethlehem University, one run by the evangelicals, Bible College, and one, our university, which is ecumenical. If we take Jerusalem as an example, in East Jerusalem, we have six hospitals. Four out of the six are Christian and they serve around a quarter of a million patients a year, 99% of them are Muslims. So you can see the impact that Christians actually do.

Mitri Raheb:
However, if we look at Gaza specifically, there are less than 800 Christians left Gaza, which really means that we know that, within this generation, Christianity will cease to exist in Gaza. This is really painful because Gaza used to be one of the main mission hubs in Palestine in the fourth, fifth, sixth century. The gospel went out of Gaza into the Southern part of Palestine, Sinai, et cetera. All that history will be gone soon, unfortunately.

George Mason:
There's so many directions I want to go with you about this, but I think maybe it's best, as you've described the situation now of the place of Christians in Palestine as a small minority but with an outside sense of influence, yet in American churches, there seems to be a forgetfulness about your very existence. Or a willful ignorance of the fact that you continue to exist. Sometimes what we hear in our theology that comes from an interpretation of the Bible that places the region of Palestine, the city of Jerusalem, the state of Israel, in an end of days understanding, the support for the state of Israel from many Christian churches is unmixed. It is complete and entire, even if that support hurts fellow Christians in Palestine at this time. Tell our viewers what it feels like to you to live there and know that your sisters and brothers are proclaiming a way of being Christian that is damaging to the lives of the actual Christians on the ground.

Mitri Raheb:
This is a major problem that we face because there is this movement, what we call Christian Zionism, which is really very dangerous, I think, for many reasons. First, it somehow mixes the biblical Israel with the modern state of Israel and that is very dangerous. Because the moment you give any state a theological overcoat, that is very dangerous. Because states are sinful at the end of the day and the prophets were saying that all the time.

George Mason:
As a Lutheran, you must keep emphasizing that.

Mitri Raheb:
Correct. And so it's very dangerous. As you said, I think in the sermon today, once nationalism and religion are mixed together, this is the most dangerous-

George Mason:
It's a terribly dangerous cocktail.

Mitri Raheb:
Exactly. So that's one. Secondly, these Christians Zionist, unfortunately... They really ignore us. They don't talk to us. They think we are not kosher Christians because we don't share their... not theology, but their ideology. For me, that's more an ideology than theology. The third reason is, really, they are not only dangerous for us as Palestinians and as Christians. They are dangerous for the Jews themselves. Because they really don't like or love the Jews, but they are anxious for Armageddon. They want to see the end time coming sooner rather than later. In their ideology, two-thirds of the Jews will be killed after going back and the third third will convert to Christianity. So basically, their ideology is calling for the annihilation of the Jewish people, which is antisemitic, actually.

George Mason:
It is. It is indeed.

Mitri Raheb:
And so this is why I cannot agree with them. The last thing is that their political agenda is frightening. Because, really, it's an ultra conservative political agenda that... I mean, when I now watch Fox News and I see them talking about third world war and nuclear war and so on as if they are really anxious about that. This is frightening because, as Christians, we have to work for justice and peace and not to support wars.

George Mason:
Exactly. It's difficult sometimes to get involved in conversations with Christian Zionists, for me, because unless I establish my bona fides of saying that I support the state of Israel and I believe that the Jews have a right to a homeland and this sort of thing, there's no more conversation to have. Sometimes this is true with Jewish friends as well, but many Jews, of course, while naturally taking great delight in the fact that there is a secure homeland for Jews somewhere in the world, no longer having to be forced into diaspora but having a place where they can be free to worship and live, nonetheless recognize the moral contradiction in the occupation that they have of Palestine in this time. Many of them support a two-state solution also so that Palestine would have autonomy and be able to do that. I guess the question I have, Mitri, is how do you manage these kinds of dynamics of conversations when so many people make it very difficult for you to be an authentic conversation partner?

Mitri Raheb:
I think sometimes within the Jewish community, you have those groups who think they have what I call monopoly over suffering, which I question. I mean, the Holocaust was the most terrible thing that could have happened in Europe and I'm sure that a kind of Christian theology, unfortunately, was a part of leading to that. But if we think of the Native American, if we think of the African American... I mean, every suffering is unique. We as Palestinians, we have been suffering for over a hundred years. And so while I understand the longing of the Jewish people to have a secure homeland, I expect from them to understand my right to have a secure homeland.

Mitri Raheb:
I thought that the Jewish people should understand, actually, the Palestinian suffering better than anyone else for two reasons. One is if you read Jewish history, it was often a history of resistance against the Roman occupation. So they understand that occupation is not good because they experienced it on their own body. And so how can they support our occupation. And the other... Having suffered in Europe so much, I was hoping that there will be some sympathy with people suffering, which they showed here with African American community to some extent, but they are not showing it with Palestine.

Mitri Raheb:
Having said that, in the states, thank God, there is also a movement that I see. Before there was AIPAC only and they are with the state of Israel whatever the state of Israel. This is not anymore the case. Now, you have J Street. They are calling for a two-state solution. But now you have other groups like Jewish Voices for Peace, who are actually saying we would like to have one state. So you have this spectrum and this movement within American Judaism, which actually is for me a sign that occupation does not have a future.

George Mason:
Good. Good. So there's a political question, but then I think there's... Sometimes people only think about things either from a political or a theological perspective and, as we talked about, that can be good or bad depending upon your politics and your theology. This is true for Jews and for Christians and for Muslims as well. No one has a monopoly on good or bad theology or good or bad politics. But one of the things that you say in this book is that the motif of persecution that many Christians use as a narrative... not just in the Middle East, but also throughout the world and including in America now increasingly... is, in a sense, a politically driven claim. Really, it needs to be challenged on the basis of real life in how Christians are living in different places. Will you say more about that and more about the nature of that in your book?

Mitri Raheb:
What I'm saying here is that the idea of Christian persecution is a perception rather than an actual description of the situation. It says more about the West than about the Christians in the Middle East. I am showing that in different stories. It's a book of church history.

George Mason:
It is a book of church history, it is, but political history as well and the role of petrodollars and the... You know.

Mitri Raheb:
Exactly. So I talk about Lebanon. The civil war there. 1860. I talked about the genocide of the Armenians. But I talk also about Christian Zionism and the Balfour Declaration and having a Jewish Homeland. Actually excluding the Palestinians in that. But also I talk about, as you said, the petrodollar and Iran and Saudi Arabia exporting their version of Islam. But really, the idea of Christian persecution as we see it today is actually an invention of the evangelical Christians in Lausanne II which took place in 1989.

George Mason:
Right after the fall of...

Mitri Raheb:
The Soviet Union.

George Mason:
The Soviet Union.

Mitri Raheb:
Exactly.

George Mason:
Coincidence or not, right? So the shift takes place from persecution by the godless communists to the anti-Christian Muslims.

Mitri Raheb:
Exactly. Exactly. That happened actually... Basically, it's an Argentinian-born Christian, who at Lausanne II said we have to shift to what he called the Resistant Belt, reaching from Sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, all the way to China, where actually 95% of the Muslims live. And so this is when we see the discourse that Christians are persecuted by the Muslims. Maybe now after the Korean War. I feel that this old Russian enemy, there is like a comeback now, so it might shift again or maybe you'll have now two. Not only one. But really what I'm saying here is that the history of Christians in the Middle East is a history of not so much persecution, but actually, it's resilience. That's for me the most important word. Resilience. I mean, Christians... In the last 2000 years, they were able to adapt, to resist, and to continue preaching the good news in a context where sometimes there is no good news. For me, that is something to celebrate. This is what I would like to focus on.

George Mason:
I think another thing that comes to mind here is why is it that Christians seem to be so in need of a persecuting enemy in order to know who we are when we share the same biblical texts of Judaism that declare that we must love and care for our neighbor and welcome the stranger. Jesus was clear about that over and over. All through our Christian scriptures, we are told that this is to be the case. Instead of needing to find an enemy, we are supposed to reach out to our enemies and essentially understand them as neighbors. This is something that you have to do as a real politic with the Palestinian Muslims as well. You have common cause to do so and this is an uncomfortable truth for many people.

Mitri Raheb:
Right. At our university, 80% of our students are Muslims. You have Muslim women, girls, with scarf. You have others without. You have that even pluralistic within Islam. But at the end of the day, what we share is our humanity. If it's with Muslims, if it's with Jews. The most dangerous thing is if we lose our humanity and if we lose seeing God in the other. That is really, I think, what Jesus taught us. It doesn't mean that life is always easy. Life has lots of challenges. Sometimes we have also challenges within interfaith, but I tell you. Some of my best friends are Muslims and I don't want to live in a context where it's exclusively Christian or something. Even I don't want to live in a context where there are no Jews. For me, this pluralism is something that is dear to my heart and this is what I would like to promote.

George Mason:
Likewise, here in America, in the United States, this is part of what we are working toward through our Faith Commons organization. But as you begin to talk about the humanity needing to be emphasized, the common humanity, this leads me to talk about Dar al-Kalima, the school that you founded in Bethlehem, a university devoted to arts and culture. This is a strategy that I think is quite subversive. That is to imagine that you are there, training a generation of Muslim and Christian Palestinians in the arts to find their place in humanity in a place that often feels dehumanizing to them and helping them to imagine what it would be like to construct a different kind of society. Tell us more about Dar al-Kalima.

Mitri Raheb:
The idea behind Dar al-Kalima actually was a vision that we caught while I was pastor at Christmas Lutheran Church. We felt God was calling us to reach out to the larger community. It's not enough to work within the church walls. Sometimes we feel so comfortable. We felt that our arts and culture are maybe the most important and powerful tools for social transformation. We didn't want to do theology because we didn't want just to reach out to the Christians. We didn't want to do politics because people are fed up with politics and politicians let them down, irrespective which politicians. But the arts... Especially in that context, art is a powerful tool. One, art is therapy. John Hopkins University did a study about Palestinians under occupation.

George Mason:
I did not know.

Mitri Raheb:
And they found out that 85% of the Palestinian people have some symptoms of depression because of the occupation. Wow. And so art really is a healing therapy in that context without calling it therapy. Second, art is important for the future of the church because imagine worship without music. Worship without the arts. So that's a powerful tool. Third, art is important for identity. For us, we want to help shape a dynamic identity for our people. Because sometimes when you are under oppression, you might lose your humanity and your creativity. And so investing in creativity is of utmost important for us living in that. But also, if you want peace, you need creative people. Because war is boring and it's the easiest thing you do, but peace is really the creative mind that can only reach that.

Mitri Raheb:
Last but not least, art can provide a new means of communication. I mean, now, we are doing this podcast. You see how important actually having cameras here and light and sound. Our Palestinian people have been telling their story so far mainly through lectures and maybe books, but now imagine if we tell our story through a film. For example, on Netflix now, there is a film called The Present, which means a present but also the present situation and t talks about a Palestinian father with his daughter. They want to go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem to get a present for their mom. And then the checkpoint, all of that, and they cannot cross. It's a 35-minute film. Eight of our students were working on that film as assistant producer, second assistant director, camera person, sound, et cetera. Imagine... I mean, a film like that, which was directed by a Palestinian woman. She lives in the UK. A film like that got the BAFTA Award and was nominated for the Academy Award.

Mitri Raheb:
One of our students, a film student from Dheisheh refugee camp, which is the largest refugee camp in Bethlehem, got the third award at Cannes Film Festival. From the refugee camp to the red carpet, thanks to filming. So I see a new generation of creative Palestinian leaders emerging. I feel our generation, we failed somehow. Hopefully, they will be able actually to achieve a just peace and to tell our story as people in a creative way, in a nonviolent way, and in an interesting way that catch the attention of the world. This is my hope, this is my prayer, and actually, I see it happening.

George Mason:
Oh, that's magnificent. Well, one last thing I'd like us to talk about is Bright Stars of Bethlehem. This is a nonprofit that you have created as well that is inviting people to come follow the star, or follow the stars now, to Bethlehem as the biblical story of Jesus' birth and the magi. You say that your generation, our generation, has failed in this respect, but it does seem to me that you have held up the light in a sense still. A vision and imagination for a future that is closer to the dream of God that we read in our biblical texts. While strategically we have not seen that come to play, yet you're laying the groundwork for generations to come to do that. If people are interested in participating somehow and saying this is all very interesting to me, but here I am in some part of the United States and I can't run over to Bethlehem and be an advocate, how can I be a part of that? Bright Star of Bethlehem. What does it mean and how can you tell us to help?

Mitri Raheb:
In the biblical story, there were three magi that came from the east. Now, in 2004, there were three friends who came from the West, from the US. They came to Bethlehem, following the star. They saw our ministry. It was still at the beginning. They felt God was calling them to support this ministry. And so we created here together a 501(c)(3) tax deductible organization that has two aims. One is to raise awareness about the situation in Palestine in general and the situation of Christians in particular. But secondly, also to raise support for this ministry so that it can continue. We invite people to visit our Bright Stars of Bethlehem Facebook or Instagram or website. Also, if they feel to support, they are most welcome. We hope that, if they cannot come and visit us, at least maybe they can watch us through broadcast like this or follow us on the social media. As Bright Stars of Bethlehem, I tour the States like five times a year. Come to different states so people can come and hear us and connect with our friends.

George Mason:
Wonderful. And if you would like to go to Bethlehem, you are welcome to do that too. Many Christians who go to the Holy Land never actually end up in Bethlehem. They only go to Jerusalem and other parts of Israel. But some of us are committed always to do that. By the way, Faith Commons will be planning a tour and so, if any of you wishes to join us, please communicate through our website or by email. We'll be talking about that and we'll be going to Bethlehem too. Absolutely. Now, The Politics of Persecution is the book. It's Baylor University Press and you can get it on Amazon also. We wish you well with the book and Bright Stars of Bethlehem and Dar al-Kalima and all the ventures, Mitri, that you are involved in. My goodness. Just tireless work on behalf of humanity and we're so grateful.

Mitri Raheb:
Thank you, George, for hosting me and for being such a dear friend.

George Mason:
Thank you. God bless you.

Mitri Raheb:
Thank you.

Speaker 3:
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