Skye Perryman on the midterm elections and perfecting democracy

Skye Perryman is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward. She is a lawyer, advocate, and leader with a track record of taking on and winning critical fights that advance democratic values, stop abuses of power, and improve the wellbeing of people and communities. In this episode, she talks perfecting our democracy, what we can learn from the most recent midterm elections, and creating conditions where people can pursue their faith, their spiritual commitments, their dreams.

Watch the video, here.

George: [00:00:00] Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host George Mason and I'm delighted to introduce today the first of three conversations with Sky Perryman, who is a lawyer, advocate and leader the president and CEO of Democracy forward a foundation in Washington DC that works on issues of legal matters, especially related to democracy itself and to fairer elections, but also on ways that people can make their voice known about particular issues going on in this.

And today we're going to be talking about democracy itself, about the state of democracy where we are as a country in the progress of democracy. The challenges, the threats to it, and how things turned out in the midterm [00:01:00] elections. Not so much about who won and who lost on a partisan basis, but how did elections take place?

And how did the decisions that people made reflect their concern about whether everyone had a fair voice in making decisions come to pass? And so we'll be talking with Sky about that and related issues of faith I think you'll be interested in this conversation because we're all still a little bit on edge waiting for the final results of where we stand in these elections.

And how we got to where we end up which is to say who had access to the ballot? Who felt restricted from that? How did the courts decide whether elections were representative or not? And so we'll be talking about all those [00:02:00] sorts of things. Join us for this conversation on good God with sky perryman.

Here she is.

it's a delight to have you sky on. Good God to talk in this particular episode about democracy. Thank you for having me. Well, so let's just start. With what you're doing at Democracy Forward Foundation because I know this is not your first time to be with them.

You've you started out on the initial litigation team and then came back now as CEO of the organization. 

Skye: Thanks for having me. Democracy Forward is a organization of lawyers and policy specialists and communications experts, and what we do is we try to bring the power of people and communities.

Into a branch of government that sometimes doesn't have as much representation from people, and that is the courts. Ah, and so at Democracy Forward, we use the law [00:03:00] to fight for good government on behalf of all people and all Americans. And what that means is that we challenge unlawful governmental activity, that could hurt people that we see in our states and communities throughout the country.

We bring voices of people and communities from all D. Walks of American life into legal challenges in order to make sure that their positions and perspectives are amplified. And then we do a lot of support work trying to support good policies that are out there and making sure that people who have a stake in those policies are able to make their voices heard, whether that's in like a regulatory process.

In the courts when per perhaps an extreme group challenges a good governmental policy. So we do a, variety of work. We started at, in the aftermath of the 2016 election, and were really focused at the, that time on the threats to democracy that we saw at the federal level. And now we [00:04:00] know after January 6th, that there are threats to democracy all across the country.

And so we're doing a lot of that frontline work in the courts and in the public. 

George: Right. Well, thank you for that introduction. I think that people would probably like to clarify that you are talking about the judicial branch of government and how it is involved in the democratic process. And we really have three branches, the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial.

Typically we have always thought, I think that the legislative branch is really the first line of democracy in a sense, right? Because it ultimately is the place where we make laws and where we practice democracy and all of that. And that the judicial branch is really the [00:05:00] place that safeguards those things.

Right. But how have has that changed in your mind? I mean, it as, it, it seems to me that the legislative branch has become less effective at actually legislating. And we, have devolved to states where states. Created election laws now, and ways that seem to be for some people on the, in their point of view, it is a protection of democracy and for others that it is a repression of democracy.

Right? And then the courts at, the federal said every level end up getting involved to scrutinize that. Right. What's working and not working about our American system of democracy, that the courts that you were especially dealing with should [00:06:00] have such a significant role today in the protection of democracy?

Skye: Yes. Well, you know, we know that the courts are institutions that are really important in a country where it's important that the majority of people be able to chart how the country is moving. But that all people be protected in that and that there be safeguards for those systems. Systems that allow people to choose their leaders fairly, all those things that you're talking about, the legislative, you know, all of these things the courts have been really critical over the years in protecting and we've seen courts also begin to redefine the laws in the United States.

 To define the constitution in different ways that might restrict the rights of certain people. And so what we do, the courts, just like every institution are made of people. And, but we try to be a nation of laws and a nation of first principle and a nation of values. And so we see the courts as critically important, [00:07:00] both as a last resort where people need to go in order to stop bad behavior, but also as a front.

Where a lot of these issues that you're talking about, voting rights, we see that back up at the Supreme Court and many courts throughout the country. Healthcare, economic rights, all of these things, they get litigated, they get in the courts. And so it's important that there be good representation of people and communities in America.

System, just like it's important that there be good representation of people in, in, you know, in, in our elected branches that people be able to make their voices heard. And so, so we do a lot of that and, we look to challenge unlawful behavior, but we also look to make sure that if an extreme interest is trying to use the courts in a way that would restrict the rights of people, that there is advocacy in those courts on behalf of the people and communities affected.

George: [00:08:00] So let's take a specific instance or, aspect of this, and that would be the gerrymandering of districts of congressional districts. Now, this takes place at the state level, right? And so whoever controls the State House ultimately gets to determine what the federal Congressional. Districts are, and the argument for gerrymandering, it seems originally was actually to be more democratic, right?

I mean, in the sense that there would be a, way of saying that it's not just natural boundaries that we, have geographically, because that could ultimately and, up being unrepresented of minority populations [00:09:00] especially. And so there was a sense maybe, or there's an argument that gerrymandering in principle is supposed to create better sense of what America is and giving a voice to more people.

But the way it's actually been practiced is that it manipulates the, districts in a way. People tend to lose their sense of participation in in the democratic process and lose heart about voting because they don't feel as if their voice is heard. Can you say a little bit about where you think we are right now and where we can go to correct the abuses of gerrymandering and how it has undermined democracy rather than, 

Skye: There is a lot of amazing work that is being done by former Attorney General Eric Holder by groups like Democracy [00:10:00] Docket by groups like the Brennan Center.

I mean, there's a tremendous amount of work that is being done to ensure fair voting maps. To ensure fair voting representation and to try to ensure that, you know, the promise of democracy that everybody gets to have their voices and perspectives represented. And the courts have had a really big role in both safeguarding voting rights, and we have seen.

As a result of, you know, a multi-decade effort, we have seen that there are movements in the courts right now and people that are seeking to bring cases in the courts right now in order to undermine the right to vote to undermine things like the Voting Rights Act, to undermine the ability of people to.

Their representatives fairly and of people to be represented. And so, you know, you've, I'm sure I know your listeners are, have heard some of the coverage of recent Supreme Court arguments. We've seen you know, [00:11:00] amazing exchanges by, for instance, justice Jackson on the court talking about the history of the 14th Amendment.

Why in this country it is so important that we all be able to be represented. And so so I think that we. You know, there is a lot, there's a lot up at the court right now that is threatening the ability of people to be represented in two certain, you know, in two Supreme Court cases. And then you have things in courts throughout the country.

And so, I know we're gonna talk about what happened this week, but I'll just say I think you know, there's reasons to be hopeful because there are good people out doing. Work and there are people that you know are not lawyers and are not doing this stuff day to day, that nevertheless, every election they are out trying to figure out ways they can enfranchise people and get people to the polls.

But we are up against a real concerning movement right now in this country that is actually seeking to undermine some of those very foundational democratic [00:12:00] values. And so that's, you know, we all have a role to play in how we deal with that. 

George: So I think you've made a really good point, and that is to say that part of the health of democracy is based upon whether people actually can be working hard to promote and preserve democracy and to expand it.

And that these groups that you've talked about, whether they be legal organizations or other kinds of, groups we still have the capacity in this country to change the things that we don't like. And so organizing to that end is, is an important part of that. As long as people have a sense of agency and part.

Problem with the loss of democracy is the loss of the sense that they have agency that they can actually affect change and, that sort of thing. So having said all of that let's, talk a little bit about, the midterms. We're here just a few days recording this, just a few days [00:13:00] after the midterms and the effects of the elections are still not.

Certain yet we, still have at this time of recording. We still don't know several senate races. We still don't know several house races, and we don't know therefore what our government's going to look like, who's going to be controlling the, various branches. But when you look at what happened in these midterms what's your analysis of the status?

Of democracy. 

Skye: I think we saw, I think we saw a lot of things here. I think one is going into the elections. There were a number of people, and this was somewhat new at this juncture of our history. You know, nothing is new under the sun. And I think it's important when we talk about democracy that the country has never gotten it a hundred.

Right. And we've had people that were disenfranchised, enslaved, disenfranchised for, many years. We have a [00:14:00] legacy of that. There is ongoing movements around that. So when we talk about democracy, we really are talking about forwarding it or advancing it, or trying to make the country more perfect.

It was never, you know, we wanna protect it, but we wanna protect it to be able to propel it to better and higher and, even. Inclusive places. And so I think what we saw this time was something very concerning for our modern times where people were seeking offices in order to potentially be able to tamper with or deny election results of the 2020 election.

And we saw a lot of those candidates lose in many. States and, what we saw were voters saying, and polling showed this leading up to the midterms, that Americans care about their democracy. It matters to people in this country, and that is reason for hope. We also saw in some states, Where states are able to put particular issues on the ballot.

So this is where I'm gonna go to the democracy piece. So there are a variety of states that put issues around [00:15:00] women's reproductive healthcare. We saw states put wage wage issues on the ballot, healthcare on the ballot. Medicaid expansion in South Dakota and some other places. What we saw in those issues is that people uniformly want a society that is inclusive, that takes care of people, where people can seek, you know, what they need.

And then we saw that there are states like the one you're sitting in and, Florida and other places where there is a range of concerning and unlawful and anti-democratic behavior. From lawmakers. We've seen really. You know, very concerning things in, Texas as one example there's a platform of one political party that does have election denial as part of that platform, and we saw those office holders largely win.

Yeah. And and, so I think that it's it, There's a lot of reason to have hope because what we saw is that people care about [00:16:00] the issues, they care about democracy. But there is a lot of reason to know that there's a long road to walk here because in many states, people there, there are lots of voter suppression efforts.

They're continuing and there are a lot of these very extreme movements that continue to play out. So I think that's kind of how I'm looking at it right now. It's, hopeful in, many ways, but that is not to make light of the fact that there are many people who are looking at what's happened and Still don't feel visible or seen, such as many of the populations in places like Texas and Florida that have been targeted minoritized populations that are not being represented right now by their leaders.

George: So I think what we saw in the midterms is something that maybe flew under the radar for a lot of people. And that was that there were many. It elections in states for Secretary of State. Yes. [00:17:00] There in almost every case those secretaries of state who were clearly running correct so that they could potentially.

Reverse or, change or deny the will of the people if they didn't agree with the outcome? Essentially they all lost. Yes. Maybe one exception as I recall, but but I think that's, It's an encouraging sign. But we also have a legal challenge coming, I think it's out of North Carolina, about the interpretation of the the, legislative.

Role of the electoral college, right? So explain that sky a little bit to our, audience, because I, think it, it's something that came up with the January [00:18:00] 6th. Question about whether the vice President's role was simply ceremonial or whether he had the power to deny the election or send it back to the state.

So say a bit about the, legal challenge that's happening there. 

Skye: Yes, there has been an effort since the 2020 election to introduce this theory of law. And, when I say this I, if I'm on a podcast that people can't see it, but I'm saying it with, air quotes because every. State, Supreme Court, every, I think state, Supreme Court chair chief Justice in the country has rejected this.

This is not something that was accepted by legal theorist. And so I just wanna, and scholars, so I wanna be quite clear as we begin to talk about this theory, this is not a type of. Theory that has been something that has been accepted in, American jurisprudence, but it is something that we saw that was [00:19:00] very concerning at the outset of the OR in the 2020 election, and that is now making its way and has made its way to the Supreme Court.

There will be arguments. Later, and it's called the Independent Theory of the State Legislature, and it essentially stands for the proposition that courts should not have a role in in being able to check the, maps and election results . And so it, it would es essentially mean that the election results cannot be certified.

Or, could or, that a legislature could take a role in doing this. And then of course, that courts, if you would go and try to challenge and. Works, the courts would then have no role in being able to stop that behavior. And so I think that this is a, very, when we, when I talked earlier about sort of a movement that we're seeing throughout the country, we see it in many ways.

Some of it's cultural, some of it's legal, some of it's political, but we do there are many threats. To [00:20:00] our very foundational principles of democracy. And one of them is this theory, this independent theory of the state legislature, which again, is not something that had ever been accepted or you know, part of kind of American judicial Lexicon , but that we're now.

Seeing as a result of this election denial type movement. And, to your point that, you know, mentioning sort of the hope out of the midterms, I think we did see that at least the people that were seeking office, that were ascribing to some of these types of views did lose in large part, I think.

But what we still see this movement not only. Courts, but also in in many states throughout the country where there are people that, maybe they weren't running for Secretary of States, but where their platforms or other things that they've ascribed to really call into question some of these foundational principles.

People can disagree on a whole bunch of things, but in this country we've tended to have very foundational principles that could allow everyone to be able to have their say. And so we're watching that. [00:21:00] It's called Mor v Harper. We're watching that case. There was an earlier voting rights case that I mentioned earlier that was out of Alabama on the Voting Rights Act.

And so there's, several significant voting cases that, that are quite significant. 

George: So I wanna move into the question about the role of faith and democracy. And in doing so I'm gonna make maybe some controversial statements here about the relationship between religion and democracy generally.

And in doing so I, just wanna sort of open the door to a larger question about the role of, religion, faith with democracy, but, If you, if we step back a little bit there, there's a kind of assumption that I think we all have that democracy is in some ways the logical outgrowth of [00:22:00] religious faith.

And in, in some ways we've had in our country a kind of fear. That certain kinds of people who are religious do not really favor democracy. And so we can go back to John Kennedy's election in 1960 and remember that much of the country were afraid that. Catholicism by its nature is hierarchical and not democratic.

And therefore he would be more obligated to do what the church said, what the Pope said than, to be submissive to the will of the people generally. And he made clear that he could do so as a, faithful Catholic. Islam is another tradition that many people fear is anti-democratic in its nature.

Many Muslim friends of mine would say that's not true and [00:23:00] would argue with that, but we. Know that there are states that are fearful that Sharia Law will be instituted if we're not careful. You know, Muslims are, this is their ultimate goal in America, this sort of thing. But what goes unstated in all of this is that we now have a movement of Christian nationalism.

In this country that seems to be willing to use our democratic process to get to an undemocratic way of functioning in America. And the question is whether they are actually. Believers in democracy or whether they believe that there is a higher law that they are subject to and therefore any means of getting there, even in undermining democracy.

Having an autocracy and having the right people in place is, really the. The ultimate end game and goal, and I, think we're [00:24:00] in a very interesting position right now because for biblical literalists literalists guy we, can obviously say, There's no like claim of democracy in the New Testament, right?

I mean, there it, says, obey the emperor and the powers are put in place by God and authorities, and therefore you're supposed to be submissive to them. Of course, the early church was resistant on various levels and all of that, but at the same time, these are folks who, if they're biblical literalists, We're not sure which direction we're going, are we going toward democracy or away from it?

Right. So I'd like to ask you about how you see the ethos of America right now. When it comes to democracy as to whether communities of faith, as to whether religion is friend or fa of, democracy. 

Skye: Well, I think that it's there's such an, so [00:25:00] many questions in there, but I think that we know from the founding of the country that people are, people have been, you know, me.

Many people consider themselves spiritual beings. Some do not, but many consider themselves spiritual beings. And that part of this country was creating or seeking to create the conditions. And I say seeking to create because of course we know that so many people were not represented, were not treated humanely.

And in the, at the, you know, the founding of the country and that we continue to have to move forward and. That part of that ultimate progression is, in fact, you know what we hope for the ultimate democracy but, what I'll say is that, you know, democracy is seeking to create those conditions where people can pursue their faith, their spiritual commitments, their dreams, their pursuits.

In their pursuits of happiness. I mean that is a, core foundational value in this [00:26:00] country. And so to, go to this question of whether faith is friend or foe, I think first is in order to even be able to have these discussions and to engage in the types of discussions we're having now, you have to have some conditions to be able to do it.

We know there are many countries where there are many countries where we can't even. This discussion and so, so and but, I do think, and I say this sort of in my personal capacity as a person of faith, I do think that there are so many ways in which faith can contribute to, and so positively contribute to society.

But like all things, there are so many ways that it can. Completely abused. And that, and the, that is what we're seeing now. That is what we saw by the way, in the you know, early days of American democracy. I mean, this, there has always been. An [00:27:00] element that wanted to deny full and true democracy to all people, representation to all people, equality to all people.

And often those elements use any type of mantle that they can raise in order to build their own power and platform. And, culturally in this country, one of those mantles is the Christian faith. And so we see people misusing the Christian faith in order to An agenda that is not loving, that is not foundational, and that is not democratic.

And so I, you know, I think that that's, I guess that's how I would answer it. I think there's so many positive things around faith and democracy, but like everything people that are seeking to abuse their power and platform and privilege can do that to the detriment. And that's what we are really seeing in this country by some people are calling it a Christian nationalism movement.

Some people are saying, well, it's not Christian, it's not [00:28:00] really nationalist, so what is it? But, this movement, this very extreme movement that is not new, but that is new in the kind of outsized amount of political power it is wielding right now. 

George: It does seem that the more I get involved in interfaith work, and this is obviously a program sponsored by an interfaith organization, common there are some commonalities among all these religious traditions and you know, one of them is that the, divine gift of human dignity of.

Single person, that there isn't a hierarchy of humanity that we are all equal. Which is a foundation for democracy, right? Yes. I mean, in the early days of the country you had to, if you were going to deny black people the right to vote, you had to actually look them in the face and say, you are not one of me.

And that was a, harsh thing to, to have to do. [00:29:00] If they were human, fully human and equal, then they would have to have a vote. And so we, we have, we think we've sort of gotten over that hurdle, but nonetheless, the other one I think is that we all in our religious traditions say that we should love our neighbors ourself.

Well, if you're seeking your neighbors wellbeing then part of that is that your neighbor should be seeking your wellbeing and how are you gonna do that? But in a democratic setting, 

Skye: right? Yeah. That's what I think that democracy seeks to provide these conditions where people can pursue their spiritual commitments their non-spiritual commitments, their, you know, their ideas of happiness, their life.

And we do see a threat to that. And so then to your question about, you know, is this movement, like, do they not. Like democracy or are they trying to replace it? And I think I think that's just a, I think it's great. I mean, what we see throughout the country, and I think what we just saw in these elections is that [00:30:00] the majority of people in this country, the vast majority of people believe in the promise and potential of democracy.

They may disagree on issues, but they want people to be able to be treated in fair. And that's, a reason for hope when we see things like this. Even on something such as, and I know we'll talk about this on another podcast, but even on something as such as reproductive healthcare and abortion, where people have differing views.

We, in this country, the vast majority of people understand that those are personal views that people have to arrive at on their own. Not the role of a government or a high or a you know to, make those decisions. And so we see that. And and I do think that there is this very religiously fundamentalist, often coming from the Christian tradition, this movement that is not in favor of full enfranchisement, true equality of all people.

And that's something [00:31:00] we've seen in our past too. I mean, there were, you know, The most humane, inhumane atrocities that we've experienced in the country, whether it's with respect to Native Americans or with respect to enslaved, right? Black persons or others. Other inhumane movements had an element where people were abusing their their label as a person of faith in order to wield power to do those things.

And so I think that is one of the major fights right now is. Groups like yours to, be helpful in pushing back. 

George: So I think your point about there's reason for optimism from these midterms is really a good thing that people have basically by their vote said, you know we, do believe in democracy.

We do believe that there should be a place for everyone. People of all faith and none, as you mentioned as well. That's, an important point. And yet, vigilance is really important. I'd like to say to [00:32:00] our audience it that just because we had some successes in this midterm election with regard to democracy, regardless of whether you are left, right, or center in your political point of view, pay attention to the rhetoric.

Pay attention to the people out there, the newly elected governor of Oklahoma. Just declared in his acceptance speech that he as now by the mandate of the people and both in his spiritual conviction and the his language, the physicality of my being in Oklahoma in this role. He claimed the state of Oklahoma for Jesus.

And I think, you know, this is a real concern when we think about all the things we've been talking about and seeking to live in a respectful, pluralistic democracy that we have an elected official taking a position like that. So having said all of that, and we need to wrap up this conversation [00:33:00] right now, sky.

I wonder if you could say something about what you are learning right now from your own faith perspective as you look at what would help us to affirm democracy as a framework for the common good. Is that a question that makes sense to you? Can you make sense of it? It's a faith commons kind of question, and the program of course is called Good God.

So we're always trying to make this connection with our guests on a personal basis. I 

Skye: think that That one of the things about my own personal faith and that and frankly around people that have been so incredibly meaningful to me who have had faith perspectives, has been this sense of, agency, this notion that your individual.

Choices and actions matter. We, can't [00:34:00] change how other people react to us. We can't change things, some things that happen to us, but we can and do have the power with our own lives to we, we do have the power with our own lives to be able to make a difference in small ways, in big ways in. You know, in, in in ways that are very intrinsic to yourself, you know what you're doing.

And so what I have really been taking with me as doing this work of democracy prior to a lot of my most recent work at Democracy for it, I did a lot of women's health work, which we will talk to and still do a lot of that. And that's an area that gets. Where you can feel despair because there are so many disparities.

And it, of course, the last few years have been very difficult from a democracy perspective as we saw January 6th and so many things. But knowing that individuals do have the ability, To with their life and with their to [00:35:00] make a difference. To do what's right, to try to channel this goodness to try to is very powerful to me.

And I think it's, very powerful from sort of a day to day perspective, but also when I step back out and think of a spiritual perspective that we are in this place and what we do matters. And we can all be part of that. And I think that we see some evidence of that on a national scale to some degree this last week.

But I think we see evidence every day in the work that I do. I see every day people and communities stepping out of their comfort zone, doing the right thing doing the thing just because they, know it's the right thing to do. Not worried about, you know, broader consequence. And I think that's that's really inspiring to me.

George: Well Sky Perryman, you are inspiring to us and we thank you for the time you've given to us today to talk about democracy. You are perfectly suited to do so as President and CEO of Democracy [00:36:00] Foundation, and people can find you online@democracy.org and see what all you are up to. And I'll look forward.

Two more conversations with you as we're going to pursue questions of reproductive rights and abortion policy, and also LGBTQ rights and policies around those and from faith per se perspective, and also democracy. So we've got more to do together in future weeks, but for this first conversation, we're really grateful that you've been on.

Good God. Thank you. 

Thank you for joining us for this edition of Good God, a conversation with Sky Perryman, the first of three. We'll be continuing our conversations on subjects of particular interest that she works on with another conversation about reproductive rights, women's health and access [00:37:00] to abortion after that we'll be talking about LGBTQ rights and where that stands as well with legal challenges down the road, what's happening with legislation about the life of trans persons relationships with their families, and how we adjudicate these different cultural matters of sexuality.

And legal matters of marriage and medical care and things of that nature. It should be an interesting three weeks and hope you'll continue to join us for good God and all these conversations that follow. Again remember to go to faith commons.org. That's faith commons.org, and you can find all these episodes under the Good God tab.

So thanks for joining us for this episode. We'll see you again. 

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