Skye Perryman on the Dobbs decision and the future of reproductive rights

Join Skye and George as they unpack the consequences of the Dobbs decision, how Christian nationalism influenced the ruling, the future of reproductive rights and what we can all do to protect them.

Skye Perryman is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward. She is a lawyer, advocate, and leader with a track record of taking on and winning critical fights that advance democratic values, stop abuses of power, and improve the wellbeing of people and communities.

Watch the video, here.

[00:00:00] George: Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and Public Life. I'm your host George Mason, and in this episode we're going to continue our conversation with Skye Perryman. Skye is the president and CEO of the Democracy Forward Foundation. She is a lawyer and she's working in the area of human rights specifically, but in the current position she's in, focusing on the expansion of voter access and the promotion of a broader sense of participation in the Democratic process. Skye is gonna talk with us about reproductive rights and where that stands now after the Dobbs decision from the Supreme Court that overturned Roe versus Wade, this decision through the matter back to the States, and since it did, we have had [00:01:00] midterm elections where a number of states have reenfranchised

the right to reproductive freedom that is the right of a woman to make the decision to have an abortion and the right for medical professionals to carry that out with impunity as part of their own call. So some states have done that and other states have triggered old laws that have further restricted the rights of abortion.

This has been a longstanding. Cultural matter, a difference of opinion that has raged within the medical community, the legal community, and the religious community, all converging on this decision and this broader matter of who gets to decide. When does life begin? Who has a stake in the termination of a pregnancy?

You are taking it to term, [00:02:00] and so we're gonna be talking with Skye about that and other things. Thanks for joining us again for this addition of Good God and now Skye Perryman.

Welcome back to Good God, Skye, Perryman. We're so glad to have you here to talk with us. This is our second in a three part interview process conversation on. Good God. The first time we talked about the state of democracy in after the midterm elections, and now we're gonna be talking about reproductive rights and abortion.

And where we stand with that. And you are keenly poised to be able to talk to these things because this has been a work of yours now, even before you got to Democracy Forward Foundation. You were Chief Legal Officer and General Counsel for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

So you oversaw a lot of these [00:03:00] questions about healthcare provisions for women and whatnot. But that's a, long introduction to say hello. So hello again.

It's good to be here. So Skye, let's talk about where we stand after Dobbs. So we had nearly 50 years of Roe versus Wade that found a constitutional right to abortion for women. And it was a, contentious matter for half a century for many people who believed that abortion was morally wrong.

The, they organized, they did a great deal to try to get the. Supreme Court in a position to take a stand to overturn Roe, and they succeeded. The success of that threw it back to the States. So I think to begin with, I'd like to ask [00:04:00] you to fill in people who are listening, watching us on this.

What is the outcome of Dobbs in what we're actually seeing and how it's being played out in states now? What was the ruling and where do we stand? 

[00:04:18] Skye: Well, Dobbs was a Supreme Court case as, everyone in the country knows handed down in the summer. That did overturn nearly four decades of, precedent with Roe versus Wade.

And essentially found that the Constitution does not recognize a right to privacy that extends to the termination of pregnancy. And in doing that Justices recognized and said that they seek to return these questions to the states. And we'll talk a bit about what that means, right? Because we have a lot of things that are [00:05:00] very fundamental importance.

To people their civil rights that we have always in this country had constitutional protection for. And even prior to Roe versus Wade, the court for many decades recognized that there was a privacy, right? A right to decide, for instance what type of education your children are going to get a right to be able to obtain family planning or contraception.

And and a right in many respects that our constitution has always acknowledged from the founding days around people's intimate these, intimate pieces of people's lives. And so what we saw in Dobbs was an overturning. Of that jurisprudence with respect to the termination of pregnancy.

And of course there are many that are concerned that this has much broader implications. And now we're in a position where states [00:06:00] within, some within some bounds, and we'll talk about where there are some limits on state power because there are limits on state power still even post ops.

But that in, in many, in. States are able to pass laws and there would not be a constitutional argument such as the one that Roe recognized based on the right to privacy available. The reason I'm being a bit nuanced about this and, I'm sure you'll ask me more questions, is that there are many laws that still protect the rights of Americans.

There are free speech laws, freedom of association laws, your ability to worship. And the way that you choose to worship and pursue spiritual commitments. The federal government as it has federal protections for people that takes precedent over state laws. And so there are a number of areas where there are still some protections for the right to abortion even in.

States, there are some, but what we are now seeing is a devastating situation [00:07:00] where many states throughout the country have banned abortion or severely restricted it, and many individuals are being left without the type of care they need in, in pregnancies. And I know we'll, talk a bit about that today.

[00:07:14] George: Try not to be overly simplistic about this. But is it fair to say that what you're describing here is a a difference of legal opinion about the idea that the, US Constitution It overrides states when it comes to fundamental human rights that all Americans should enjoy. And up until now, Roe was included in that category.

So the rights of women to be in charge of their own reproductive lives was considered to be a, thing that nationally we had to protect. [00:08:00] But after Roe, With the dobs decision, what we see is then the court saying no, that doesn't fall into that category. That it is actually a decision that states get to make because anything that's not specifically stated in the constitution and protected thereby, and this isn't it's a.

Extending the logic of the constitution to include, it falls back to the state. So now every state has to make a decision about its own policy of of whether permitted abortion and how to do so. is, that overly simplistic or is that where we are? 

[00:08:44] Skye: I think that it's a good description in terms of if a state bans abortion or severely restricts abortion.

The Supreme Court has basically said as the way it's interpreting the Constitution that you cannot that you cannot use a, [00:09:00] privacy constitutional theory in order to challenge it. As I mentioned, there might be other. Ways, and we can talk about that. But what this has really meant and we saw it just days, hours after the decision, is that a number of states, including the one that, that you're in, that had these bans and laws on the books that had been rendered unconstitutional as a result of ROE and subsequent court decisions were able to, begin to live another to live another day and to.

Operate to restrict the rights of people. And then of course we've now, as we're approaching the end of the year and looking at the legislative sessions that that will come into play in the new year, we're already seeing that a number of states are contemplating similar legislation and bans.

[00:09:47] George: To be specific about Texas, because many of our folks watching this are Texans. We had a trigger law that was in effect. [00:10:00] So what is the actual matter of fact in Texas now is that we have reverted to a law that is nearly a hundred years old that all. Prevents abortion under any circumstances, right?

So it's extremely difficult for any woman, even when her life is in danger not to mention cases of rape or incest, that she can access abortion and so she has to cross state lines. And because it's Texas, sometimes that's, Far peace, as they say in Texas that you have to go to to, be able to access reproductive healthcare.

This is true in some other states as well. And yet there are states that have voted. That in this most recent election midterm elections that they [00:11:00] have liberalized their abortion laws. So we're all over the map now in a way that is back to being similar to the pre road days. Is that right?

That's right. Yeah. I don't know if you've heard recently, but we now have a bill being prepared in the Texas legislature that would permit pregnant women to drive in the HOV lanes because they are actually not one person, but. Two, and that they would be permitted to do so because they are pregnant.

I'm not sure how you enforce such a law, but this is the ends to which the logic goes right. When you have declared that at the moment of conception, you have personhood, 

[00:11:56] Skye: So there's a number, there's a mosaic of these state laws and [00:12:00] restrictions, and some of them are based in personhood and others are based on just restricting medical restricting medical procedures and practice.

But we do have, we are seeing a lot of extreme positions and they're, positions that are really harming people because what we know is that. There are many reasons that people may seek this type of care and and laws that restrict the ability to do so can really erode the ability of people to consult with their doctors, to be able to make their best decisions about their health and their lives and their wellbeing.

And so we are seeing this play out across the country. 

[00:12:41] George: So I wanna go right to that point with you and talk about how the dobs decision and decisions being made at the state level that in a sense preempt the work of medical professionals and even legal [00:13:00] professionals, well, and clergy as well. This is having an effect on the professions, right?

That in, a sense. We have legislation now that is preventing professional people from doing the very work that they feel called to and trained to, because in the name of democracy we, have established rules whereby they are limited in their ability to carry out their, professions.

How do you, think about what clergy lawyers and doctors are going to be dealing with in, in the wake of these, rulings? How are they gonna be able to figure out how to exercise their sense [00:14:00] of, call professionally? 

[00:14:03] Skye: Yeah, so this is a great question. Let me just say, I appreciated how you said in the name maybe with air quotes of democracy because just putting on that hat for a moment and then we can talk about the devastating effect this is having on a number of professions.

We represent a group of social workers right now in Ohio that are dealing with this so, across a range of professions. But I will say justice Ali's opinion in Dobbs. Some very flowery rhetoric about democracy. And I think it's really important to set the stage here for a few things. One of which is the laws in many states that we are talking about are laws that were passed prior to all people being able to vote, including prior to women being able to vote.

What we know about early American life, even though many of us weren't able to vote many, who look like me and others weren't able to vote then. But what we know about early American life [00:15:00] is actually there. There's a bit of a misstating and many legal scholars have now done some wonderful work.

Correcting that record, that Justice Alito articulated because early. American society. Abortion was not outlawed it was not criminalized. And it was not even among religious communities and I, and even now among religious communities, there are many that do not prohibit abortion. But it then, that was the case too.

And even the Catholic church did not hold the views that it later developed. And so I think there's some. Work we have to do as we're thinking about our history to be really real about what it was and how over time it evolved into a circumstance again, when most people were not represented, where some certain of these laws.

Came on the books and, in fact some of it was because medical professionals at that time wanted to be able to maintain their, scopes of practice and were concerned about midwives and others helping women. So I say that when you said in the name of [00:16:00] democracy, I couldn't resist myself to set that stage and would be happy to talk and, come on and talk with you and your guests at other times about that deep.

About that deep history that I think is super important. But, the, what that brings us to the present time is an incredibly devastating situation for people in your line of work. George and clergy medical professionals social workers, others that are seeking to help people obtain care, whereas in many states are seeking and local communities are seeking to pass such draconian.

State ags, like the one in Texas that are coming out and even saying things like they might wanna prosecute people for if you're a CEO of a company for trying to help your employees travel out of the state, which of course is, very unconstitutional. I in this country, you do have a right to travel and to move about.

But I think we are seeing that there is a series of this legislation and, government interference. Into professions [00:17:00] and what that means. And, let's think about what that means in the religious community because what we've seen is there is and, you started this show off this way.

There is a, narrow religious point of view that some people do sincerely hold. That that would. That they may maintain the position that abortion is in all cases wrong or should be unlawful, but that's only one position. And we have a variety of people between and among faith communities that see things differently.

And what that means for a country like America that is supposed to be a democracy where we can all coexist and, come together and. Is that one spiritual view should not take precedence in our matters of government over others. And so even among there's a lot of political things at play that might call one to question some of the sincerity, but even among [00:18:00] even in the circumstances where you have people that sincerely hold all of these different beliefs.

The real question now that we're facing. In a world post ops is is where now many state legislatures are able to essentially prioritize one of those spiritual views over others. And that is, that's incredibly concerning in a country that has a bedrock of a separation of church and state and of many other.

That where we seek to, try to be able to live among each other without imposing our personal views on, other people. 

[00:18:35] George: Well, this is, I think, an interesting time to consider the role of religion with respect to this matter because yes, you are right. One particular religiously based point of view about when life begins at conception in, this case, has one.

The legal argument [00:19:00] essentially at the Supreme Court and effectively enfranchised one particular. Religious conviction that is not necessarily supported by science even. So in terms of the larger world of reasoning in the public square. Where we consider all evidence and, give a voice to everyone to discern the truth.

We have ended up privileging one particular religious interpretation generally of biblical texts. And yet the truth of the matter is we have a court that is now saying that we should have wide latitude for religious freedom. Of, people who have sincerely held religious beliefs? Well, we have that in effect with Christians [00:20:00] like me who do not agree with this point of view.

Jews almost across the board who believe that life, human life begins at birth, not at conception. And Muslims who. A more generous view of the permissibility of abortion as well. And so we have whole segments of, religious opinion that has been denied this expansive religious freedom because one view has been referenced which, puts us really into the category of are we really moving?

Toward a kind of Christian nationalism that in, in, in jurisprudence, that preferences one particular point of. 

[00:20:51] Skye: And we saw just weeks or days after, I think the Dobbs decision was finally published. We saw, I think, on the State of Belief [00:21:00] podcast that the Interfaith Alliance and other groups are part of someone that came out of this fundamentalist Christian movement saying, I saw the words that I read in that Dobbs decision.

I've heard and I saw in these places. And so I think it's an incredibly important question. And I do think that you see the roots of, not only Christian nationalism in this opinion but also we have to ask why, because even the religious. Beliefs that you're siting. This one particular perspective that was not always how religion viewed and, more about this than I do, George, but I that was not always how religious traditions, whether they be Catholic, whether they be Protestant, that is not always how they viewed them even in this country.

And what we found was after. There was a push to ensure that wherever you lived in the United States and whatever the color of your skin was that you could go to [00:22:00] school and, attend a public school. And that laws like Jim Crow were unconstitutional, right? There was this push that there is the Constitution and it protects certain rights of people that need to override whatever political machinations of a particular state or locality because we're.

Equal dignity and equal. And it was that push that there was such a backlash against among many c communities, among some evangelical communities in the south as, and it ultimately led to when they could not rally around White supremacy as publicly, perhaps as they might have once been able to.

We saw it leading to other issues. And one of those issues was reproductive healthcare and abortion care. And so then you saw this movement of kind of religious extremists take this mantle up. In the years after Roe was decided, and of course that's several decades after [00:23:00] Brown was decided and, we saw that, and of course through that multi-decade effort, we end up with a decision like Dobs.

And so I think it's really concerning from a religious. Perspective or from people that care and value people in the country being able to pursue their own spiritual commitments. It's very concerning that we now have this point of view that has been prioritized. 

[00:23:23] George: I think it's, I think it's important from my Baptist point of view, and we both are Baptists, we should go back to remember that right after the Roe versus Wade decision, Southern Baptists.

Had a resolution at the Southern Baptist Convention that essentially agreed with the decision and that of all people, wa Chris will, the pastor of the first Baptist Church of Dallas, no raving liberal. He said that he believed that this was always in his [00:24:00] mind. That should rest with the woman's to make this decision. And so again, agreed with the decision, but what you're referring to in terms of how this came to shift I think our viewers would be interested to know is, really. In the wake of the Bob Jones University decision where the tax exempt status of Bob Jones University, a fundamentalist school in South Carolina was revoked because of their rules prohibiting interracial dating.

And so this was considered to be an overriding human right. That was being violated and the state had a compelling interest in this, and so they revoked their tax status. Well, this sent shockwaves through the community of, Christian schools where. They were afraid that [00:25:00] their racial attitudes white supremacist views and, racial segregation would endanger their schools.

And but that was considered to be a, losing issue in the minds of the public. And so through focus groups, they came to realize that abortion was the one that could win. And so they rallied around it. The moral majority was formed, and they have succeeded. Because ultimately the goal was to make sure that the federal government would not be able to interfere with the religious convictions of people who were running their churches in schools and other institutions, and by winning enough elections and getting the abortion.

Issue out front. They [00:26:00] succeeded in getting the court not only to rule on Roe versus Wade but, ultimately what we see is a change in the way they view the First Amendment a change in the way they understand the compelling interests of the, federal government. And so now what we find is increasingly a kind of permission for religion to discriminate against citizens with impunity that the protections of the federal government are being removed in favor of these religious exemptions.

So I, I think it's important for people to recognize that people who, as you say, unwittingly, probably think this has always been a contested. 

[00:26:47] Skye: That's correct. And, when I used to pre-do, I gave a lot of talks on ROE and the cases coming after roe. And what many Constitutional scholars will tell you is there have been two decisions in modern Supreme Court [00:27:00] history that immediately when they were issued, there was a fundamental list backlash around.

And one was Brown versus Board of Education in the 1950s, and one was Ro v Wade. And what we found is the, groups that were opposed to Brown are the same groups that of course were opposed that, that were opposed after Roe. And it fits with, the other history that you've outlined here too.

And I think it's an important thing and not, and that is not to. That there are people that have any number of views on abortion as a personal matter or complex views about any number of things in society. I It's not just abortion as any number of things, but the question that we have to grapple with as people that are committed to democracy and to the wellbeing of all people in the country is what the role of government is in that.

And of course, jobs issued a real blow to that because it does vastly expand the ability of states to. [00:28:00] To control very intimate pieces and parts of people's lives. You 

[00:28:06] George: know when we think about the role religion has to play in all of this, we, I represent faith commons and this is good God.

And we're having conversations about public life and we actually don't believe that you should leave all of your religious convictions and your religious reasoning. Off to the side when you enter into the public square that you can bring it with you. And that's actually the American version of religious liberty rather than the French version say where we believe that this is a dynamic world of conversation that should happen.

But in doing so, we also don't think. One group should be privileged in bringing their faith perspective into, these [00:29:00] conversations. So I guess the question I have for you at this point is, so what role should religion play in the question of reproductive justice and abortion at this.

[00:29:17] Skye: Well, I think that's an individualized question for people. I think that for many people when they are looking to make decisions about their healthcare, about their lives, they do turn to spiritual advisors to community. We know a lot of research suggests that these are decisions that people would discuss with their families, communities, spiritual advisors and for others it's not so much that way.

And and the beauty of the public square that we. In the United States or that we are supposed to have I think we're falling a bit short of it now with these decisions like Dobbs and with the rise of Christian nationalism, and we really need to be vigilant and on guard and fighting back against that.

But the beauty of the [00:30:00] American idea, you. Is that, is a question that can be answered differently for different people and we can all come together and live harmoniously because there is an appropriate protection that the government provides for people to be able to make decisions around their lives.

And for people to be able to pursue their spiritual commitments and to do so without undue interference from the government. And so what we have, Is we have a number of people living in states like Texas, living in other states who are serving in the medical profession and helping professions like social workers in ministry who believe as a result of their moral and spiritual commitments.

That they are here in order to serve others, in order to do work for underserved populations in order to help people access the best of their lives and that they're being prevented from freely doing that because of laws and [00:31:00] restrictions that post ops are becoming all too common. And so I think for me it's.

The question you pose that is the question. And the answer has to be that these are there can absolutely be a role of religion and spirituality and spiritual commitments within people's lives, and they can take that into the public. But the minute that it's. Starts to impede and impose and a view upon others.

The minute that it begins to take on this posture of what, some are calling Christian nationalism, cuz a lot of it's coming out of the Christian tradition. Unfortunately, although in other societies we've seen it out of other traditions as well. This fundamentalist hard line, we really are in a difficult place.

Not only from our. And the values, but also with respect to what the actual impact this is having on people. 

[00:31:54] George: Yeah I think you've made a really interesting point about the fact that [00:32:00] even with Roe in place we, had the opportunity to exercise our spiritual commitments in making decisions.

That, but those decisions were permitted to be made. In many cases. Now, they are not permitted to be made. I, think about a, verse that is often used in in this conversation. It comes from Deuteronomy in, the Bible. And it it's, where Moses That God has declared that life and death have been put before you.

Blessing and cursing choose life. Okay? So it's interesting to me that this very verse is used by both people, by people who are, on both sides of this issue. That those who are anti-abortion emphasize choose life and those who are [00:33:00] for. Reproductive choice say yes, but it says choose life. And so if you look at that the, whole notion at least of choosing involves human agency and that agency has been taken away from individuals.

With the Dobs decision that many states have made impossible for women to make that choice and for professionals to carry out their, calling. But the whole concept of what is life is also a disputed matter and, needs to be 

[00:33:39] Skye: considered. Well, and I think, and just because you said it, you knew if you were gonna have me on air.

I was gonna have to say this, but I also think there is, and we just owe it to ourselves as, thinking people and as people that are trying to discern and get things right. There really is a hypo, a real hypocrisy about the sort of life. Rhetoric that is used and [00:34:00] because what we know, and the National Academy of Sciences has produced studies on this, there's a number of research institutions that have shown is that that actually restrictions on reproductive healthcare, bans on abortions like the one we're seeing.

They really, they threaten the lives and wellbeing of so many people, of women, of moms, of families, of lots of people. And so the, very notion that this is a movement that's been able to lace itself in this life rhetoric in many states, including in Texas, the same groups that are dedicated to banning abortion are also opposing things like Medicaid expansion where we know that that is a huge issue.

For women and communities and families. And so I do have to say that I I, think there's a choice element in this part that we're talking about, which is that these restrictions really are [00:35:00] depriving people the ability to make some of these choices about their lives. And that is deeply concerning from a spiritual perspective, from a democracy perspective, from so many perspectives.

But I do think that we also have this deeply concerning. Rhetoric that we need to we, owe it to our, communities and to our country to ask harder questions of that type of rhetoric and to really dig deeper. Because what we have found, and this is why I think there are so many in the religious community that have been speaking up about the harms of abortion bans and restrictions.

Because we know that there's just so much entailed in this that are really problematic for people in communities regardless of what personal perspectives one might. 

[00:35:43] George: So to wrap up our conversation on this, matter today I, I wonder if you could say to our listeners and viewers who are maybe feel like they wanna throw up their [00:36:00] hands and say, I don't really know what to do.

I feel. Like there, there's nowhere for me to go. Nothing for me to do. I'm frustrated by this. I, what is the way forward here, Skye? Is it that we organize at every state level to change laws to make it more open? Is it that we ask Congress to pass? A national law that enes roe again, which then will be contested again and all of that.

Where do you think this should go in order not only to open things back up for women and, their right to choose, but also to dampen something of the severe culture war that this has represented? Is there a way forward in both? 

[00:36:49] Skye: I think there's a way forward, and I think it's gonna take folks have being an anybody.

You don't have to be a lawyer, you don't have to be a doctor, you don't have to be a minister. I I think people of great [00:37:00] courage have to dig deep here. And so what does that mean, depending on where you live? Right now that means different things, right? In Texas it means understanding who you're voting for what they stand for.

With respect to the equality of people, with respect to women, with respect to reproductive healthcare, understanding who you're how you can help people in your community access care, how you can provide support. There are little. And bigger ways. For people that are living in other states, sometimes that means creating more innovative models of expanding access to care so that so that the communities that are enabling care at this time can be able to take others that are having to travel.

Of course we know that there are a number of organizations it's wonderful to support, but I think that one of the things that. Pieces of this playbook that we know that people who abuse their power do is they want people to believe that there's no hope. Because [00:38:00] when there's no hope, then you can be absolved of any responsibility.

You, you know what? That's a fight we lost. We don't have to do more. And what I hope. The midterm election show, but what I hope the actions there's inspiring work going on the ground in Texas and in so many states show that we can all use our positions, we can talk about it in our communities, our spiritual communities.

It's really important to have discussions like this destigmatizing. This discussion. This is not the kind of spectator thing where it's well we're just gonna move on. This is things that's affecting real people's lives and family's lives, and communities lives throughout the country. And so I think there's a number of things.

So being educated, having conversations even within your own. Communities, educating yourself. For those that are lawyers and, can do legal work, there's a lot of legal work that's needed. And there are many groups that you can hook into to, figure out how to help. For those that are more [00:39:00] politically inclined, there's a lot of ways to get involved and voter education and helping people exercise their rights to vote and in educating folks.

And so I think there's a lot that we can all do. I'm happy to send you some. Maybe we can put in some show notes, some specific things. But I think the main thing is that, where people the number one, Alice Walker always said this, right? The way that people give up their power is that by believing and by maintaining this position that they don't have.

Have any power and there is power in people. And in these dark moments, there are, there is a way forward. And I think we have to believe that and not give into the cynicism even though it's a really dark time. Because the only thing that's gonna change it is people, because that's what we have to believe in a democracy.

The only things that's gonna change it with people and we can use our lives to, to try to enhance the situation that we're in and to do right by all the people in our country. Well 

[00:39:57] George: Skye Perryman, there's really no profit to trying to [00:40:00] add anything to what you just said. I think that's a, beautiful place for us to place some ellipsis points so that this is to be continued for all of us as we Take up our power and use our agency to participate in democracy and to stand for the things that we care about.

Thank you again for being on. Good God for our second conversation and looking forward to our third where we'll be talking about lgbtq rights and where we stand in our country about that. So thanks again, Skye, for being with us. Thanks so much.

Well, thank you for joining us for this conversation again with Skye Perryman who has helped us understand some of the legal matters and how also, For religious groups and people of religious conscience to enter into this matter of this new state of affairs. With regard to reproductive freedom in [00:41:00] our country we hope that you will find your own ways to advocate regardless of the position that you take.

From a spiritual perspective or if not a spiritual perspective, simply a legal one or a moral one, as you see fit, we urge you to be involved in the democratic process, to seek to promote the common good. That's the work of faith commons, most of all, and we ask you to bring your religious convictions or your moral convictions without religious underpin.

To this task but to do so always with a view to the greatest possible freedom and to the greatest sense of justice for all citizens under the law. So thank you again for joining us. You can find a further information about this and other matters of moral concern on our website@faithcommons.org.

Once again, I'm George Mason and thank you for joining us for Good.[00:42:00]