Amy Butler: Embracing Jesus' Message in the Church, in the World, and in our Lives
George is joined by his friend and colleague Rev. Dr. Amy Butler, author of the recently released Beautiful and Terrible Things on the necessity of community, the inevitability of conflict, and the transformative power of radical love.
They discuss her book and her story, how the weaponizing of religion today is similar to the political situation Jesus encountered, and the need for crossing boundaries and for doing the hard work.
“Religious communities can be good and redemptive and world-changing if we'll only do the hard work.” - Amy Butler
Watch the video, here.
George (00:00):
<silence> Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome back to Good God, my dear friend, the Reverend Dr. Amy Butler. Amy, welcome back to Good God. Thanks,
Amy (00:55):
George. I love being here with you.
George (00:58):
Well, uh, the main reason that you're sitting here and we're having this conversation is because of this book that has just been published by Random House. It's called Beautiful and Terrible Things, faith, doubt, and Discovering a Way Back to Each Other. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. It is a memoir of sort. Uh, but more than that, more than just telling your story, it's telling a story about the church that you have served, not just one, but many, about your journey of faith, about the relationships along the way that have shaped you and changed you, and maybe much more so about the state of our life together, um, both as Americans and globally. That sounds like a whole lot to cover in one memoir. So we're gonna get to talking a little more about that, because I know I tend to be grandiose, but we are preachers. Don't you know, <laugh>
Amy (02:09):
Well, um, I had someone tell me once, you know, you're, you're a lot <laugh>. He then broke up with me, but also <laugh>,
George (02:21):
he then broke up with You. Yes. Right.
Amy (02:22):
So, so just apply that to the book. You know, you're, you're a lot.
George (02:26):
Okay. Well, let's start with just looking at the cover of the book. It's a beautiful book, uh, but you decided, uh, that this book would look the way it did on the cover, and we have some beautiful color, uh, on the cover. Tell us about this and how it relates to the title of the book and the sense of, of what's going on here.
Amy (02:49):
Well, as you know, George, we're good pastors are good marketers, right? Yes. And, um, this whole writing a book thing has been a new experience for me. I just, I've never done it before. And when it came time to choose the cover, the, the publisher had strong opinions about what genre would look good to the audience that they wanted this book to appeal to. And, um, in their estimation, it was going to be Florals. Florals would be on the cover of my book. Well, you know, I'm from Hawaii and a lot of my story is grounded in sort of my island background. So I knew it had to be a tropical flower, and I really wanted to have the Oh, Lehua on the cover. And this is, um, as I've told you, this is a, a really ugly, little gnarly shrub. And it's the first thing that grows after the devastation of a lava flow.
George (03:46):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (03:48):
So, you know, we have active volcanoes in Hawaii. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so when the lava covers a piece of land, it kills everything. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and you just look out over it and it's just like desolate wasteland. And then through the cracks, come this little shrub
George (04:03):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (04:04):
And then all of a sudden these bright red blooms that are just intricate and gorgeous and beautiful. So as you're looking out over the landscape, you can see these spots of beauty. And I was like, that's my life. That's what my life's been like. I don't know about you, but
George (04:22):
It is in a sense, everyone's life. Right. So that actually goes to the background of the title from Frederick Beaker's quotation. Would you tell us what that says?
Amy (04:33):
Sure. Um, here is the world beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid.
George (04:38):
Don't be afraid. Beautiful and terrible things. But Amy, isn't it part of our Christian consciousness that we grew up with in church, that if we would just really be close to God, that terrible things will not happen to us, we would be protected from them because they are only the result of sin in our lives. That's right. Uh, of, or if people who sin against us, but if we're really close to the Lord, then beautiful things will happen and our lives will, will, we will not have devastation, we will have blessing. We will have beauty. We will have all these good things because somehow God will prove God's self faithful to us because we have been faithful to God. And that is nonsense.
Amy (05:32):
I mean, that's what I learned, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and in the book I write a lot about sort of learning to reject this transactional view of faith.
George (05:41):
Yes.
Amy (05:42):
And the realization that not everything is as clear cut as we thought it was.
George (05:48):
Yes.
Amy (05:49):
And not only have we taught that theology, we've built institutions that reflect that George.
George (05:54):
Yes.
Amy (05:55):
Like, you know, you have to show up at church looking like your life is shiny and perfect. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And one thing I've found in this book is how many people have come up to me at churches crying and saying, oh, this happened to me. Or, oh, my life is hard too. Or, oh, I never felt I could tell anybody 'cause I felt like I was being punished by God. That's bad theology.
George (06:16):
Well, okay. So you don't hold back in this book. I say you don't, you address all these subjects and there are some details you held back. I did <laugh>. We, and I know some of them, but, uh, but I think for general consumption, you have outlined some things in the journey of your life that are just as honest and raw as anyone else's experience might be. Including things like, uh, your journey to be a woman who is accepted in the church in a leadership role, your divorce. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, as a pastor in a church getting divorced, uh, an abortion that took place. And, uh, one thing after another, being fired as a pastor from arguably the most prominent church in America, in American Protestantism. Anyway, the Riverside Church in New York City.
Amy (07:11):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
George (07:12):
So you have had this extraordinary rise. You broke the glass ceiling and then the glass broke you.
Amy (07:23):
Right.
George (07:24):
And all of these things are here as if to say, this is what the human story is about, no matter who you are. So tell us about the experience of writing about this pain and how it is actually hopeful to us <laugh>.
Amy (07:49):
So George writing this book took a long time. It took six, seven years. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, the pain is part of the reason, you know, I, I had really good editor who would read what I'd written and send it back and say, Hmm, this sounds very bitter. Mm-Hmm.
George (08:08):
<affirmative>, you
Amy (08:09):
Know?
George (08:09):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (08:09):
And so this book is not an attempt for me to work out my pain or to get back at whatever I feel was unfair. And it took a long time for me to get to the point where I was willing to do that <affirmative>, because I, 'cause I really wanted to <laugh> <laugh> tell the hard truth about some of the terrible things that happened. But the book, I think is not a tell-all. And and people may be disappointed by that. But what it really is, is like this kind of stuff happens to everybody
George (08:39):
Yes. In
Amy (08:40):
Everybody's life. Mm-Hmm.
George (08:41):
<affirmative>. And
Amy (08:42):
How do we find the redemptive relationship that comes out of, of the pain? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I hope this is not me bleeding all over you. I hope this is hope hopeful when you read it.
George (08:55):
Well, it is hopeful, and I have read it and I commend it to anyone, uh, to, to read. But you also have sort of a hope and a fear about how this book will be received, where it will find its place on a Barnes and Noble bookshelf, tell people what that is. How do, how do you feel about that?
Amy (09:17):
Right. Yeah. Again, you know, the, the world of publishing is all new to me. But, um, I write from my perspective and, and my experience as a pastor and a person of faith in the Christian tradition, and my biggest fear, especially in the political climate in which we are, is that someone will pick this up and be like, I don't wanna read this.
George (09:42):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Amy (09:42):
You know, like, Christians are crazy.
George (09:45):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (09:45):
And this book is not for Christian consumption only.
George (09:50):
Yes.
Amy (09:51):
I hope that the message in this book goes beyond Yes. That we cross boundaries that we haven't been able to cross before. That we find the similarities in our lived experience. Even if, if you're not a pastor, never step foot in a church. So I do have a fear, and my fear really surfaced when I saw my book next to Jill Duggar's book in Christian Living on bar in Barnes and Noble,
George (10:14):
<laugh> <laugh>, Jill Dugger being the woman with 47 children, or whatever it was. Right.
Amy (10:21):
No, no. I think this is the daughter who broke away. Oh,
George (10:24):
That's right. Yes. But you
Amy (10:25):
Know, this, limiting this to the Christian conversation in America right now would be to me just a travesty. And that's one of my biggest fears.
George (10:35):
Okay. So let's, let's go a little deeper then about what is happening in America today, globally, too. And that is we can't find each other.
Amy (10:44):
That's right.
George (10:45):
So this book's, subtitle, talks about a way back to each other.
Amy (10:50):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
George (10:51):
And over and over you tell these stories. And if there is, uh, an ESOP's moral to the story at the end of every chapter over and over and over again, it feels to me like what you're saying is that person who disagrees with you seems scary to you. But what if you actually talk to him or her and what actually might happen, what would be an example or two of that for people to hear from the book?
Amy (11:26):
<laugh>. Great. Well, I, I have to tell you, George, when you were in, in the Holy Land last week
George (11:34):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Amy (11:35):
And watching the terrible news that's going on around the world, the shooting yesterday in Maine, like Mm-Hmm.
George (11:40):
<affirmative>,
Amy (11:41):
I feel silly going around telling these stories about me having lunch with the chair of the deacons. Mm-Hmm.
George (11:48):
<affirmative>.
Amy (11:49):
But I think, you know, not all of us are in the middle of Jerusalem when bombs start falling, we're sitting across the table from someone who we really don't like and don't understand.
George (11:58):
Yes.
Amy (11:59):
And so you'll find at the end of lots of the chapters in the book, uh, passages like this, these relationships have made me more open and more loving, but not without some hard work and significant pain. That's the cost of life together. But I think it's worth the price because it seems to me that life alone makes for much less nuanced experience of the world. And maybe that's what Jesus means when he told us to love God and to love one another, which might even make for good religion, if you think about it.
George (12:34):
Wow. Good religion, love God and love one another over and over again. What is the greatest commandment? Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. That's right. And if you go beyond Christianity into Judaism, Islam, any other religious tradition, there is a variation of this theme that is stated in various ways. And it's just over and over again the nature of true good religion. That's right. It's supposed to bind us to each other, enhance our humanity. And yet, Amy, what we find is it's also capable of being weaponized.
Amy (13:22):
Oh my goodness. Against
George (13:24):
People.
Amy (13:25):
Yes.
George (13:25):
It fuels our conflicts nationally. We saw this on January 6th with the insurrection, with people who had signs that let us know that God had somehow led them to protest against a democratically, um, elected president and an election that they believed God had not ordained the outcome to be this. And they were using their religion to bypass the normal human interactions that we have. Uh, because they have special access somehow to God's will. We see this happening in the Middle East right now. We see it happening in Russia and Ukraine. This is just over and over again. We
Amy (14:16):
See it happening here. Yeah.
George (14:18):
We're
Amy (14:18):
Living at George and like for practitioners like you and me who work our whole lives to teach good theology.
George (14:26):
Right.
Amy (14:27):
It's despairing, I feel, I feel scared, I feel despairing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like that someone would take, take the floor of the House of Representatives and invoke the Bible and God, and, and Jesus for,
George (14:42):
For
Amy (14:43):
Hateful positions and try to create this monolithic idea of humanity. You either be like me or you're non-human, and I can destroy you. And that gives me permission.
George (14:56):
What's ironic about this, um, line of reasoning is that the new speaker of the House, as you mentioned, um, claimed that he believes that God, uh, there are no coincidences, and that God appoints and ordains people to positions of authority. And yet he tried to overturn the election of Joe Biden as President. And there are Democrats in the House of Representatives that are they not also God ordained to be there. If that logic holds this, it, it's like there's blinders on that we can't see one another in our differences because we have one team that has to win. Uh, I would love to say that that's only a conservative problem.
Amy (15:49):
No.
George (15:50):
But you've had experiences that you re recount in the book too, of how you get pushback from progressives on the left as well, about your outreach to people who are differing from you. Conservative. I think, uh, probably your, um, gun rights friend, uh, is a perfect example, Todd. Yeah.
Amy (16:17):
Uh,
George (16:17):
Would you tell that story?
Amy (16:19):
Sure. Um, and before I say that I want, I want to say that I, I think sort of this using weaponizing religion is happening by Christians so much these days. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that, um, that's similar to the political situation that Jesus walked into when he, he came to the earth.
George (16:45):
Well,
Amy (16:45):
And let's review what happened to him.
George (16:47):
Yes.
Amy (16:48):
Yes. You know?
George (16:48):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy (16:49):
<affirmative>, he was all about crossing the boundaries, inviting people in who people didn't wanna talk to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, read your Bible. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I, I don't understand. I, I don't understand how people can miss it, but, um, I tell the story in the book about my friend Todd Underwood, and I will say, dear friend, because, um, I went to visit him and his family last year, and that's not in the book. Todd is the founder of United Gun Group, and he sold George George Zimmerman's gun on, um, his platform. And that was the gun that was used to kill, uh, Trayvon Martin. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he's from Kansas City. He is a Republican. He's a white good old boy. And he, I used a story about him that I read in the newspaper in a sermon illustration. And then he reached out to me and I did not wanna talk to this man <laugh>. Like, I don't, I don't wanna talk to this man. You're
George (17:47):
Just a sermon illustration.
Amy (17:48):
That's right. Stay in
George (17:50):
Your box
Amy (17:51):
For
George (17:51):
Me. That's right. Don't be a real human being who has nuance. Just be what the straw man I need you to be.
Amy (17:59):
Right. And you know this as well as I do. It's the most terrible thing, but good preachers are preaching to themselves. Yes.
George (18:05):
And
Amy (18:05):
Then we have the choice, are we willing to do what we're telling our people to do? Mm-Hmm.
George (18:09):
<affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (18:11):
So very begrudgingly. I had a conversation with him.
George (18:15):
Yes.
Amy (18:15):
And we argued about whatever, all the things, and then finally I was just like, you are talking crazy to me. Just like, boil it down and say to me what your faith means to you. And he, George, he said to me, my faith means I love God and I love my neighbor. And I was just like, <laugh>.
George (18:38):
Okay. Wait,
Amy (18:39):
What?
George (18:39):
Okay. No argument there. That's
Amy (18:41):
What I would say too. Yeah.
George (18:42):
You know,
Amy (18:43):
And what has turned out is that he and his wife Nicole, have been so gracious to me and invited me to come visit them in their home last year in Kansas City. And I went to their home and it's very different from my home. There are bible verses all over the walls. And Nicole is this beautiful blonde, evangelical wife, and they have three beautiful children. And, um, and they took me to the rifle range, and we had some hard conversations. Like, um, Nicole had read my article, my chapter about abortion, and she'd never thought about that
George (19:24):
Before.
Amy (19:25):
We had some hard talk
George (19:27):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Amy (19:27):
As women. Mm-Hmm.
George (19:28):
<affirmative>.
Amy (19:28):
And the way that we understand our reproductive rights, that I think moved her a little bit.
George (19:34):
Okay.
Amy (19:34):
And then I understood Todd in a way that I hadn't before. He lives with a disability. He grew up in a very abusive home. He feels scared a lot.
George (19:43):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (19:44):
Okay. I still don't agree with having 15 guns in your home, but, you know, I understood him a little.
George (19:50):
Right.
Amy (19:51):
My heart softened a little Mm-Hmm.
George (19:52):
<affirmative>.
Amy (19:53):
But the feedback that I got on online from reporting, that experience was mostly from the left. And it was quite, um, vociferous. Yes. And, and it was people who were just as stalwartly, unwilling to cross the boundaries. Yes.
George (20:15):
Todd
Amy (20:16):
Even chimed in and invited one of the critics to coffee and she wouldn't go. Yeah. You know? So I just have to say like, until we're willing to do the hard work, invite the prostitutes to dinner, like, call Zacchaeus down from the tree. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.
George (20:32):
<affirmative> like,
Amy (20:32):
We are not gonna get anywhere. Right.
George (20:36):
This book is very much about relationships and surprising ones. Your relationship with Todd being one of them. You read the brief, uh, ending to a chapter about Howard, uh, the elderly man in your church in Washington DC who was scared of losing his traditions and you were bringing change as a young pastor, and yet you were there at his bedside when he died. And there's a transformation that happens when people take each other seriously, when they listen to each other, when they are really engaged with one another. Um, this is maybe where the beautiful things come in. That's
Amy (21:23):
Right.
George (21:24):
And I, I think we should talk about the church a bit <laugh>. So, um, I'm now retired as the pastor of, uh, a church that I served for 33 years. Um, and you are an interim pastor, well designated pastor in your hometown of Honolulu, but you've been the pastor of a number of churches. And we both know that the best thing and the worst thing about church is the same thing. That's right. The people,
Amy (21:59):
The people <laugh>
George (22:02):
They can hurt us, and in fairness, we can hurt them.
Amy (22:07):
Yes.
George (22:09):
And yet we keep coming back.
Amy (22:12):
Yes.
George (22:14):
You have had some really painful experiences in church, and so have people watching this conversation Yes. To the point where why would they ever darken the door of a church again?
Amy (22:28):
That's right.
George (22:30):
And yet, where else will they find this absolutely surprising grace that happens. I, I think it, I'd like you to tell the story about the conversation with the chair of your pastor search committee or a past personnel committee at Calvary when you were getting divorced and afraid of losing your job.
Amy (22:58):
Yeah, I'd love to. I mean, I, I'll go back and say, when the, when the publisher and I were arguing about the subtitle of this book, I wanted it to be Doubt, faith and Discovering Away Back to each other. And they were like, no, no, no. Doubt doesn't sell. We have to put Faith first. But to me, like, uh, doubt has been a constant companion on, on my journey and the institution that we serve and love so deeply. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, has destroyed my faith repeatedly. Mm-Hmm.
George (23:34):
<affirmative>
Amy (23:34):
And has brought me back to life.
George (23:36):
Yes.
Amy (23:37):
And uh, as I was saying last night in the conversation here at church, um, I, I'm like, not like, don't do this again. I'm just, just about to give up on the church <laugh>, and then they pull it out.
George (23:50):
Yeah.
Amy (23:51):
And that experience that you referenced is one of them.
George (23:53):
Yes.
Amy (23:54):
I got divorced. Right. Or I learned, I was getting divorced right before I left for sabbatical, and it was a surprise to me. And about two weeks in, I finally felt like I had to call the church. My oldest son was 15 and he was so worried that I was gonna lose my job, which I think says a lot about our institution and its inability to provide grace and humanity for pastors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and leaders. Um, but you, you should know as background, Calvary and I had been through a lot of, a lot of conflict. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we had just emerged and they felt they were in a better place. And I was really limping and I didn't want to call and like feel like another failure, but I did. And I called her and I said, look, I'm getting divorced. I didn't realize that was gonna happen. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to deal with this. I don't know what that means. And she immediately, without even a break, and the conversation said, do not quit. You taught us how to be gospel community here and we will be gospel community for you and your family. And I always cry when I tell that story because it's the church surprising me again. Because when we are good, we can be so good. Like religious communities can be good and redemptive and world changing if we'll only do the hard work.
George (25:28):
And they didn't just tell you that they put feet to that too, didn't they? I mean, they absolutely, they, they strategically, uh, protected your children for weeks after that as they came back to church. I mean, it was a remarkable ex exhibition of of grace that they showed
Amy (25:48):
Shout out to Calvary. Yes. They really, really, um, took this seriously. And I also wanna shout out Leah Gr said, who's the pastor of Ravens Worth, um, Baptist Church right now? 'cause she was the associate and poor thing, she had to deal with this. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But one of the things they did, and I read about this in the book, is they, my first Sunday back, they had somebody next to me, one of my colleagues next to me at all times, just in case somebody said something weird <laugh>, which one woman did,
George (26:17):
Which one woman did. Yeah. Go ahead.
Amy (26:20):
Yeah. And you just have to cry or laugh. She said, honey, have you tried counseling?
George (26:26):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Amy (26:27):
And I said, yeah. And she said, well, that never worked for my four marriages either, <laugh>.
George (26:34):
I just think that's so great.
Amy (26:37):
It's great. Because it's like, that's like our humanity right there.
George (26:42):
It really, it really is. Well, so ab I think, um, many people did not know you on the stage of American Christianity until you were called to be the pastor of the Riverside Church in New York City, where you spent five years taking a church that had a storied history. The tallest church in America built by John d Rockefeller.
Amy (27:14):
A man
George (27:15):
A man
Amy (27:16):
Yes.
George (27:17):
Who certainly wanted it to be the tallest.
Amy (27:21):
That's right.
George (27:22):
And the founding pastor being the legendary Harry, Harry Emerson Fsk, a church that though has had a troubled relationship with its senior ministers for decades now. You were the first woman to be the pastor of a church, of that church, and it lasted five years. Um, it was a painful story of the breakup. Um, I, I think people might be interested to know, uh, that just because they leave the toxic environment of maybe the conservative evangelical church world where there is sexism, patriarchy, misogyny, um, homophobia, all these kinds of things that are leading young people out of the church because it doesn't welcome diversity and this sort of thing. You went to the church that is the poster child for all the right things.
Amy (28:28):
Right.
George (28:29):
And yet,
Amy (28:30):
Right.
George (28:31):
Why, and yet, Amy,
Amy (28:34):
So I think, you know, a little bit of this background, George, I, I, when Riverside first reached out to me, I had some very serious concerns because I've already lived through a lot of pain and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and agony around change. And I could see they needed big change. So big money, big institution, big change, big problems,
George (28:58):
<laugh>
Amy (28:59):
And not that stupid. Right. So I called a Quaker clearness committee of my close friends, and they just basically said, why, why the hell would you do this? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, the thing that drew me was I can see our institution shifting now, and we're, we have to change in order to faithfully embrace the message of Jesus. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but we don't know how. Yeah. So I thought maybe the Riverside Church could, could build a model that would, would show the church how to do it in the way of Jesus. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that was a thing that just pulled, and pulled and pulled at me. And I don't, I want to say I'm so grateful for the time I had there. I had, I had the most surreal experiences, you know, sitting in the chapel with Tony Morrison and doing Maya Angelou's memorial service, like all of these things that, that you would never dream of being able to do. And I confronted dysfunction in the institution on a level that I have never experienced before or experienced since.
George (30:09):
Yes.
Amy (30:10):
And I think where there is great money and great power, there's the potential for great goodness and great evil,
George (30:19):
Beautiful and terrible things.
Amy (30:21):
Beautiful and terrible things. And I'll fully claim my own naivete. Like if I go in and love the people, you know, we can build a community that can change the world. And George, we really did, I mean, except for a few folks who just didn't wanna get on board. We were, we were not only transforming our community, we were speaking in ways that were profound on a national and international platform. I remember the Sunday after Trump was elected and he put in place the Muslim ban. I had all my colleagues stand up front and read every passage from the Bible that talks about welcoming your neighbor like one right after the other. Like it took 32 minutes. Yes. And that was no commentary from me or anybody.
George (31:15):
It's the
Amy (31:15):
Bible's, the Bible <laugh>, you know? Right. And like, how can you, how can you give up a platform like that that can speak so powerfully to, um, Christians who want to be authentic followers of Jesus? And yet I couldn't do it. I I couldn't pull it out, George.
George (31:36):
Well, okay. So you couldn't do it by yourself. But the truth is that you mentioned earlier that it's two or three people outta 2,500 that ended up being deferred to, that leads to your firing. And you couldn't do it because, not just because you were not superwoman, but because twenty four hundred and ninety seven people did not stand up and join you in this. And I think this is a really important word to people who are listening here. Much of the dysfunction of churches is centered around people who, for various reasons of their own story, come to the church and they bring, uh, a toxic environment with them. And they create problems often for pastors, for church staff that the church could solve if they actually said, we're not gonna put up with that.
Amy (32:54):
That's right.
George (32:55):
We are, we are going to clean up our own house. We're going to not permit a few people to spoil what's going on in this church, and they don't speak up.
Amy (33:09):
Right.
George (33:10):
What word would you say to people who are disturbed about things going on in their church right now, and they don't know what to do because they're not the pastor, because they're not the chair of the personnel committee because they're not the largest donor. What would you say to people who feel powerless and despairing about what agency? They have
Amy (33:34):
So many things to say, George, but I will say I wanna take responsibility for my own Mm-Hmm.
George (33:40):
<affirmative>
Amy (33:40):
Missteps. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not a perfect person. Mm-Hmm. I'm not a perfect leader. Mm-Hmm.
George (33:44):
<affirmative>.
Amy (33:44):
And I certainly failed at having a decent sex scandal. <laugh>, it's the, the lamest sex scandal ever in the history of Christianity. But I mean,
George (33:54):
You'll have to buy the book <laugh>. Right.
Amy (33:56):
But it speaks to, again, the inequity that women leaders face.
George (34:00):
Yes.
Amy (34:01):
Um, when so many of our male colleagues.
George (34:04):
Yes.
Amy (34:04):
Yeah. So I, I will say I felt a lot of self shame and failure. Like I, I didn't teach my people enough that that following Jesus is hard. Mm-Hmm.
George (34:18):
<affirmative>
Amy (34:18):
And standing up and saying, no, we will not behave this way, is, is part of being Christian community. Mm-Hmm.
George (34:26):
<affirmative>.
Amy (34:26):
And so I, I took on a lot of that responsibility for myself, and I'm, I'm, I'm learning to let go of it. Um, Mm-Hmm.
George (34:34):
<affirmative>,
Amy (34:35):
One of the things that I, I do wanna say is I had a clear cleaving in my trusted group of colleagues who I had nurtured for five years. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there were those who adopted the dysfunction and decided, you know, my route, my road to fame and stardom and whatever it is, is more important than telling the truth. And there are those who said, I will not be part of this and walked out. Yeah. And I have the highest admiration for, for those leaders. And I feel a lot of guilt for how the church damaged them and their faith too.
George (35:19):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.
Amy (35:20):
<affirmative>. Um, but to the rest I say, go find your fortune. I don't think there's any pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
George (35:27):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I think the relationship aspect that we started out talking about, where most people who read this book are not going to be, uh, in positions of pastoral leadership, uh, of great influence. Uh, they are going to be people who make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in the morning, getting their kids ready for school, who go try to make a business deal, to keep a company going when interest rates are high. And anxiety is great because they don't know if they can pay their employees. There are people who are living their ordinary lives and then they come to church on Sunday, and their question is, you know, what's my role? What, what can they learn from your story and reading this book about the significance of their individual life?
Amy (36:35):
Hmm. That again, goes back to my biggest fear about this book, that people will think of it as a nice, like Chicken Soup for the Soul Christian Living. And I, and I wanna ask people to share this book with people who are not people of faith. Yeah. And because in this book, you will find stories of my own professional life and attempts to reach across boundaries, but personal too. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I talk a lot about, um, my own experience with abortion and my relationship with my cousin Kevin.
George (37:11):
Yes.
Amy (37:11):
Who is a, is a strong anti-abortion activist and posts all kinds of things all over Facebook. And, um, for, for me to share my story so publicly, I was so scared of his response. 'cause I love him.
George (37:28):
Yes.
Amy (37:29):
And you know, he couldn't ever say, I agree with what you did, but he could say, I love you and I'm sorry for your pain. And
George (37:40):
Like, that's amazing.
Amy (37:40):
What if we could do that with each other? Right.
George (37:43):
Right.
Amy (37:45):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean that's what, that's why I think Jesus called his 12 disciples in the first place and all the group that surrounded him, like, learn to love each other in radical ways and cross these boundaries. Because if we do that Mm-Hmm.
George (38:00):
<affirmative>,
Amy (38:00):
Then maybe we could change the world. Yes. I can't give up hope George, I don't know about you, but I can't
George (38:07):
We're still here, Amy. We're still here.
Amy (38:10):
We're still here. But
George (38:13):
Thank goodness our families are perfect.
Amy (38:16):
Oh, of course. <laugh>,
George (38:20):
You, uh, tell stories about your family that was precarious
Amy (38:26):
Yes.
George (38:27):
Required a whole lot of negotiation.
Amy (38:28):
Yes.
George (38:29):
But nonetheless, we get the picture.
Amy (38:31):
Yes.
George (38:32):
Uh, that, um, it wasn't easy growing up in, in your household.
Amy (38:37):
Yes.
George (38:38):
And, uh, your parents are elderly now and you're caring for them. Uh, and that's not easy. Um, but, um, I, I think sometimes again, people have an unrealistic view that, uh, somehow if they don't get the full blessing of their family of origin, uh, their life is going to be a perpetual struggle of victimhood. Yes. And yet your story is such that at you found a way to understand your calling and your, um, dignity as a child of God and a wholeness that didn't depend upon the complete blessing of your family of origin, uh, or even the church at times. Um, where did you find that resource? How did you discover, uh, the strength to be able to go on and know that you matter and your worth it and that God didn't make a mistake with you?
Amy (39:53):
Hmm. Very good question. Thank you Jesus in heaven for very good therapists, <laugh> and health insurance that helps me, you know, spend many, many, many years in therapy and still and for good friends who invited me a little further to see the world in bigger ways. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I talked last night about a professor of mine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> was there, which was so wonderful to see Dr. Beck. But, um, you know, along my way I've had these, these people who been lights who have just said, just come a little further, come a little further. And you know, when I brought the book to my parents and said, you need to read this. We need to talk about it.
George (40:35):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Amy (40:36):
Um, we had some hard, hard talks because remember, my parents are evangelical Christians where everything is, you know, everything is good because we follow Jesus and nothing bad happens. But that's not true. It wasn't true in my family, and it's not true in your family or anybody's family.
George (40:56):
Right.
Amy (40:57):
So I tried to tell the truth in such a way that, um, was filled with grace, but also did not shy away from, you know, stories of sexual abuse as a child. And my young parents' inability to deal with that. Um,
George (41:17):
An uncle by the way, not an
Amy (41:18):
Uncle. Yeah, yeah. An uncle. Right. And, um, you know, some of the ways in which my parents' faith stances really alienated me from them for many years. Right. And the joy of being back in the islands with them having had 30 years of therapy under my belt is, um, we can have some of these hard conversations and say, isn't it beautiful? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that this journey that took us toward alienation for a while has brought us back to each other. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> not to explain what happened, but to say, wow, that was a terrible thing that happened. Yes. And isn't it beautiful that somehow we're still finding our love for each other?
George (42:04):
Isn't it beautiful? Faith, doubt and discovering a way back to each other.
Amy (42:13):
Yeah.
George (42:15):
Thank you for helping point us away back to each other for reminding us that light shines in darkness sometimes just glimpses, but enough to take one more step.
Amy (42:32):
I hope so.
George (42:33):
God bless. Ab
Amy (42:35):
You too, George. Thanks.
George (42:37):
Thank you. Thank you for joining us on. Good God. You can see other episodes of good God by going to faith commons.org and you can find the podcast there or anywhere you find your podcast. Subscribe to. Good God. You'll see you next time.