Courageous Conversations: Father Michael Lapsley on Pain as a Pathway to Wholeness and the Spiritual Wound of Racism

Fr. Lapsley is currently the Director of the Institute for the Healing of Memories in Cape Town, South Africa. He is an Anglican priest and social justice activist who was severely injured by a letter bomb sent to him in Zimbabwe where he had been exiled by the South African government for his anti-apartheid work. He founded the Institute for the Healing of Memories in 1998 to seek to contribute to lasting and collective healing that makes possible a more peaceful and just future.

In this fourth episode of the Courageous Conversations series, George and Fr. Lapsley explore pain's role as a catalyst for healing and collective transformation. They discuss the intrinsic capacity within every individual for healing and the transcendent nature of pain that binds us together. Together, they confront the spiritual wound of racism, delving into the intricate process of intergenerational unlearning it necessitates.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:11):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to this podcast, uh, that we are calling Courageous Conversations Father Michael Lapsley. Uh, father Lapsley, thank you for joining us. We're glad to have you with us.

Father Lapsley (00:31):

Thank you. I'm happy to be with you. And all those who will be viewing the podcast,

George (00:36):

Father Lapsley is the founder of the Institute for Healing and Memories, and is the president of, uh, the, uh, global, uh, community of, of this work for healing of memories. And, uh, he has, uh, an important personal story, uh, of how he got into this work. Uh, you might have heard from his accent, uh, that he is South, south African, well, he's now South African. He's actually a New Zealander, uh, but, uh, came, went to South Africa in what, the 1970s, I'd say. Is that about right?

Father Lapsley (01:12):

19, 19 73, 19 73.

George (01:15):

And has since become a, uh, dual citizen, uh, also, uh, south African now. Uh, father Lapsley is an Anglican priest and is engaged in the work of helping to, uh, bring forgiveness, reconciliation, healing of memories, uh, to, uh, people in his, uh, land. Uh, but I would say also, uh, right now we find him, uh, up near the Arctic Circle in, uh, in Canada. And, uh, father Lapsley, what, what is it that you are doing there?

Father Lapsley (01:53):

Uh, we've been here for a, a few days. Uh, I suppose what is universal is, um, that we all wound other people and we get wounded during our earthly journey. And of course, we also wound, um, mother Earth. So we've been invited to offer a healing of Memories workshop. There's actually a beginning in a few hours time, um, with the Inuit community. Um, so, uh, a workshop is a, we like to think it of as a safe space where people can deal with, um, how the nation's journey, the community's journey, uh, their family's journey has impacted and both, um, hurt us, uh, and, and from which we need to find a journey of healing.

George (02:43):

Well, this journey of healing is very personal for you as well, um, because, uh, as, uh, some have seen you, you no longer have the hands you were born with. Uh, and I think that's a story that is worth telling as we begin our conversation together. Would you share that with us?

Father Lapsley (03:04):

Well, as you said in the introduction, I, I, I, I'm originally a Kiwi boy, uh, born in <inaudible>, uh, in New Zealand, uh, trained to be a priest of the Anglican Church in Australia, joined a religious order of the Anglican Church Society of the Sacred Mission. And back in 1973, I was, um, transferred by my religious congregation to South Africa. I'd just been ordained as a priest. Uh, I came to South Africa to study. It was at the, the height of apartheid. Um, I I actually knew a lot about South Africa before I went, came to South Africa, and, and, uh, I knew there was something very bad happening there. But I, I suppose I thought I was gonna find three groups of people, the oppressed, the oppressor, and a third group called the Human Race that I would belong to <laugh>. And I often say the day I arrived in South Africa, I stopped being a human being, became a white man, because suddenly every single aspect of my life was decided by, by, by my calendar suburb.

Father Lapsley (04:05):

I could live in the universe. I could go to, uh, the park bench. I could sit on the bathroom that I could go even, even the part of the sea that I could swim in. And so for me, whiteness became like leprosy. Uh, but if I washed often enough, maybe it would come off. Uh, so for me, joining deliberation struggle was a struggle to recover my own humanity in solidarity with black people struggling for their own, uh, basic human rights. So I was expelled, uh, from South Africa, not long after I arrived. Uh, 1976, uh, I became what was in, excuse me, called the, the National Chaplain of Anglican students. Um, and, uh, I, I was expelled. I went to live in Lutu. Uh, now I know some people in the United States are geographically challenged <laugh>. Um, but, but Lutu is a small African country, completely surrounded by South Africa.

Father Lapsley (05:03):

And in fact, Desmond Tutu had just become the bishop, uh, a short time, um, before that, but it was in Le Suto that I then joined the Liberation Movement, the African National Congress of South Africa, um, which formed in 1912. We spent 50 years struggling Nonviolently, uh, and then eventually picked up arms after a massacre in 1960. So I joined the A NC, uh, after another massacre in Lutu where I was away. Uh, I had to leave Lutu because the church authorities believed that I was one of the targets, um, of the massacre. I went to work in Zimbabwe. Uh, history moves on Nelson Mandela gets released from prison. You ate regime, bury Will talk. And three months later, uh, I received a letter bomb hidden inside the pages of two religious magazines. So that's how I lost my hands, and I ear drums chatted and many, many other, uh, injuries.

George (06:03):

So this obviously, uh, shaped your ministry from that time forward, and the notion of the healing of memories, uh, in many ways, corresponded, uh, to the truth and reconciliation movement in, uh, South Africa. Did it not?

Father Lapsley (06:25):

Yes. No, that, that, that is true. I think, um, I want to just mention that perhaps a key part of my healing was that, uh, for the 14 years previously, I had lived in the countries of Southern Africa, but traveled the world, um, particularly mobilizing faith communities to see that, um, apartheid was not simply a justice issue, a human rights issue, a political issue, but it was a faith issue because the Apartheid state claimed divine guidance, um, for what they did. So, so when I was bombed, there were messages of prayer, love, support from all across the world. Often say that when I die, I won't need a funeral, because people said all the nice things. Then, I dunno why people wait till we die before they say beautiful things, uh, to us. So, so, so doctors and nurses, uh, in, uh, Zimbabwe where I was bombed and in Australia helped to heal my body.

Father Lapsley (07:19):

But it was the prayers and love of people across the world that helped to heal my soul. Um, and I realized if I was filled with hatred and bitterness, self-pity desire for revenge, um, they would've failed to kill the body, but they would've killed the soul. So I'd say enabled God's help through prayer and love of people to travel a journey from being a victim, to being a survivor, to being a victor, to take, take back agency. Now, I returned to South Africa in 1992. I've been away for 16 years. I discover a wounded nation, a nation wounded in our humanity, wounded by what we'd done, by what had been done to us, and by what we failed to do, and all of us with a story to tell. Uh, now, in the early days of the first Democratic government, there was talk of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Father Lapsley (08:12):

Uh, now my my contention was that, uh, all South Africans had a story to tell. All South Africans had been damaged, but not all South Africans were, were in need of clinical intervention. Um, and, and, and, and so I also realized that unlike me, for millions of South Africans, I had not been accompanied in the way that I was. So I discovered a calling to, uh, if you like, the journey from Freedom Fighter to healer, to create spaces where people could tell each other their, their, their stories. So, um, the Institute for Healing of Memories, um, comes out of a reflection on my own personal journey, but also a reflection on the nation's journey. And we conceived of it precisely as a parallel process to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. But then we were founded in 1998. We, we started doing the work in 1993.

Father Lapsley (09:14):

Well, the, our pregnancy was longer than an elephant <laugh>. And then the, uh, institute is born the same year, um, that the institute was founded were invited to two countries, Rwanda, four years after the genocide, New York City, many of the people who came to the New York City workshop had been part of the Civil Rights Movement, but they said it was the first time they had an opportunity to speak about their pain. So, so we began to be invited across the world and, and, and quickly discovered that healing of memories is an issue for the human family. Um, and of course, particularly where people have known, uh, war and, and, um, oppression. And so eventually we become, um, a small, a small organization, but with a global footprint, um, of offering healing of memories. And a particular element of that has been work with first nations, the foundation nations of the human family. So hence, we find ourselves, uh, today, uh, still snowing outside. Uh, and there's snow that, that high, uh, with the Inuit people who, who too have known their own, uh, pain and oppression.

George (10:28):

Let's talk about pain and suffering. Uh, in your work. I know that you have discovered that, uh, it's not really, uh, just the healing professionals who have, uh, the ability to help those who are struggling to, to heal. Uh, but really it's those who have experienced their own pain and suffering, uh, that, that somehow that becomes an access point for others. Uh, can you talk a little bit more about that?

Father Lapsley (11:02):

Yes. I mean, I, um, interesting. Uh, I think most first Nations believe the ability to heal is within all of us. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it's a matter of, of, of, of discovery. But also, um, when I come to you as my therapist and I, I, I tell you my story, probably you won't say you think you're messed up. Wait till you hear my story <laugh>. So, in one sense, it's a kinda one way street. Yeah. Um, but, and, and, and obviously there is a great deal of healing that can come with one-on-one, but there's a dimension of healing that can only happen in a collective process. Mm-Hmm. It's only when I tell my story and I listen to yours and yours, and yours and yours, maybe half a dozen people, I begin to discover that pain is transcendent. Pain connects us. And again, and again, again, people say to us, um, I felt less alone.

Father Lapsley (11:56):

I felt connected. I realized it was not just me. Um, and as I listen to your story, it becomes a mirror to my own. And often outta other stories, I actually gain a new pair of spectacles, uh, for my own. Sometimes I tell my story, it's a story of defeat. But when I listen to yours, I think, Hmm, maybe actually my story is too, a story of, of victory. So in a way, we often gain new pairs of spectacles, uh, to look, to look at our own, our own story. So, uh, sometimes when I arrive in a place, the first time they, they have a table in the front and a chair, and people sit in rows and they, and people pick up their pens and papers say, okay, now father, you're going to heal us <laugh>. We'll write, write down the methodology. So, so the first thing we do is say, okay, put your pens and papers down.

Father Lapsley (12:44):

Let's rearrange the furniture. Let's sit in the circle. Um, and, and so in the process, we become the healers of one another. But there's another important dimension. For five years, I was chaplain to a trauma center for victims of violence and torture. Uh, and my colleagues were psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers. I was the chaplain. No one knew what the chaplain was supposed to do, which was great. So I did what I did. But in those five years, I realized that yes, all, all of us had a story to tell. We'd all been wounded. We all had stuff inside of us, but we didn't all need clinical intervention. We were not necessarily pathological. There were those who did need clinical intervention even for a long time. But that was a minority. Most of us were living our lives, having relationships, going to work, but we still had unfinished business with the past, which is why in this work, we are not clinicians. We are facilitators. And if people say, look, this happened 20 years ago, I still wake up screaming, well, the person might benefit from our process, but we would also refer them. It's clear that they would need some kind of, uh, clinical, uh, intervention.

George (13:55):

You talk a lot about, uh, in your work, uh, the idea that, uh, you have, you have to rediscover in your pain, that you are not merely a victim, but that you have agency, uh, that in a sense you ha you hold a key, uh, to the possibility of your own deliverance and that of someone else. Uh, what is it that, uh, is part of your faith experience that gives you this sense of what forgiveness means and how it can be practiced?

Father Lapsley (14:36):

Well, I think there's sort of a couple of parts to, to, to what you're saying. Um, I think often the, the key to people, uh, being able to take back agency is having their pain acknowledged. Okay. Um, so acknowledgement, acknowledgement, acknowledgement. Uh, the people hear what happened to me, um, with, with open hearts, without judgment, and give me, uh, support and encouragement. So there's a key moment in the healing journey when, uh, I'm able to say, I, I, I'm hateful. I, I'm bitter. I'm angry. I want revenge. But this key moment is when I say, but it's destroying me. Uh, and, and, and, but I can't, I can't, that can't happen until I have the space where I can speak about it. Um, so then, then, uh, you know, if you think of life in like a river, the river flows, something terrible happens, and our life becomes like a whirlpool.

Father Lapsley (15:33):

Um, but in the process of acknowledgement, the river can begin to flow. I can begin to take back agency. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. But also if, if terrible things happen to us, or our loved ones, is likely to be one of two journeys. One is a journey of victims who become victimizers, who become victims, who become victimizers. And this is true of individuals, it's true of communities, it's true of nations. But the healing journey is victim survivor victor. Not in a militaristic sin, but per, but precisely the sense of, of, uh, taking back agency. And of course, we, as we record this, it is the, uh, the Tuesday after Easter, the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus. So, so of course, in the Jesus story, uh, the victim of Good Friday does not become the victimizer of today. It becomes a victor. So in that sense, even though we, we work with people of all faiths of no faith, but it's completely, uh, resonates profoundly with the Jesus story.

Father Lapsley (16:38):

Um, and that kind of transformation, that, and I, I'd wanna suggest that the story of suffering, death, resurrection is, is profoundly, uh, the story at the heart of the universe, in fact. Yeah. Um, and, and so it's there to be, um, it's there to be discovered as well. Uh, so there are many forms of resurrection. I mean, I would say that my, my own story is a story of crucifixion. It's also a story of, of, uh, of resurrection, of new life. Um, but, but it happened in my case. 'cause I was accompanied, uh, there were those all over the world who walked beside me. 'cause often when people, um, are not accompanied, all they have is their victimhood. And there's a kind of negative power in victimhood. Um, the, uh, but, but the healing journey is, is, as I say, is the taking, the, taking back of agency to, to say, and, and, and that, and my case, my very wounds, uh, enable me to do the work that I do, uh, as well.

Father Lapsley (17:44):

Um, and which of course, at the Christian tradition would say, by his wounds, you are healed. Uh, and I, I would suggest that all of us have a calling to become wounded healers, where our very woundedness as we heal, can become a source of healing for others. There's a place called Barrier Free living in, uh, New York City, uh, working with women who are abused or, um, and disabled. Um, and, and one occasion I spoke to all the staff members and asked them, why are you doing this work? One after another of them had been abused themselves. Yeah. And so they were able to take their pain and their hurt, uh, to travel a journey of healing, but then themselves to become those who accompany others on their journey of healing.

George (18:30):

And the consequence of not doing so is, uh, it is paradoxical too because, uh, we, the inability to forgive and to, to initiate this process of healing, uh, we think gives us power. Uh, but in a sense, we are equally powerless, uh, over, over this until we do. I, as a pastor, I often would speak to people about how, uh, this relationships like that, that are, when you are stuck, it's like, uh, you think it's like a leash. When you're walking a dog, you think that you are walking the dog, but the leash has two ends to it. Uh, and you're as equally tied to that as, uh, as the dog. Well, in, in human relationships, this notion of forgiveness comes from, uh, the Greek to let go. Right. And so,

Father Lapsley (19:31):

Well, the Greek A is the same word as untied. Not so we are the prisoners of each other. But let me just a, a cautionary note. Yeah. Um, and, and, and that is that, um, forgiveness is not always the issue. Um, and, and in that, um, sometimes well-meaning Christians say to hurting people, and you should forgive. Ah, yeah. And, and they say it in a very harsh way. We weaponize forgiveness. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and, and it becomes an added burden. And, and people are hurting, often they need a hug, not a sermon. Yeah. They need to have their pain heard, and then perhaps later they might choose to travel the journey of forgiveness. But on unforgiveness, I always wanna speak up both sides in my mouth. I wanna say, on the one hand, often it's about acknowledgement, acknowledgement, acknowledgement, um, and, and, and, and the importance of that.

Father Lapsley (20:24):

Um, at the same time, I meet people all around the world for whom forgiveness is the main obstacle and therefore the main key to their healing. But also because fish in the Christian community, um, is so central in our faith, we speak of it as something a little bit cheap and easy. Most human beings find it costly, painful, and difficult. And in the end, when it becomes possible, and often I think we need the power of God even to want to forgive. 'cause often we don't. Um, but it can be, it can be, um, uh, profoundly, uh, liberating when people are able to, uh, take that step. But it's also messy. I, George, I forgive you today. I'm not sure about tomorrow <laugh>. And sometimes, sometimes the books, you know, so it, it, it, it, it's messy. Um, yeah. And it's got lots of ambiguity and ambivalence in the reality.

Father Lapsley (21:17):

Um, the reality of life. I met, I met a wonderful woman called Abigail years ago in the United States. Uh, she was part of murder victim families against the death penalty. Um, and her story was that her daughter had been murdered 13 years previously. And she, and she decided in her mind that she had forgiven the person, the murderer. Uh, and then she, one day she opened the newspaper and it said, he's going to be executed. Her response was to go and pick up the phone and say, I want to be there. Now. It turned out that it was a, a, a false report. And he wrote to her and said, could we meet? And the family was divided, or those who said, no, she shouldn't. But she did. She went and met him. Um, and, and, and when I met her, he was still on, on, uh, death row. Um, and so I said, how will you feel if he actually does get executed? He said, I would've lost a dear friend. Ah, but that, that was a 13 year journey. It wasn't a five, a five minute journey, uh, that, that had taken place. And of course, the realization that, um, uh, having another mother cry wasn't gonna bring her daughter back, um, yeah. As well there.

George (22:36):

So how do you de describe the relationship between forgiveness and reconciliation?

Father Lapsley (22:45):

Maybe they're, maybe they're cousin sisters or cousin brothers? I'm not <laugh>, I'm not sure. Um, I, I think, uh, you know, maybe we could give an example of, um, a situation of abuse. Um, uh, a a a woman may, may decide, um, I have forgiven my abusive husband for what he has done, but I'm never going to live with him again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, so the, for the, for because of my own healthy self love. Yes. Um, and, and, and, and so there's forgiveness there, but there's no reconciliation. But probably before we talk about reconciliation with the other, often it's about how do I reconciliation with myself? Um, and, and, and for many of us, the most difficult person to forgive of all is myself. Um, and many people I meet in prison say, the one I struggle to forgive is myself. That, that I did it.

Father Lapsley (23:41):

So, so, so if you like, it's the kind of process of integration with myself, the wholeness of myself and my true self. Um, that is that reconciliation. But then there's a reconciliation, uh, with the other. And again, sometimes, uh, it is the, if you like, the, um, uh, the lesser, you know, I think there's, there, there, there are very few situations where one party's a hundred percent innocent, the other party's a hundred percent guilty, uh, and sometimes the person who is a tiny percent guilty reaches out to the one who's much more guilty. Um, and that frees them to be able to admit and respond. And then there can be, uh, a journey of, of, um, reconciliation. You know, the, the day that Nelson Mandela was, um, inaugurated as president, um, there were all these people on the platform. There was the deputy president and the chief justice and the head of the military.

Father Lapsley (24:40):

And there was somebody that we didn't know who he was. It was Mandela's prison guard. Uh, and, and, and because, uh, they had traveled a journey together in the prison, the, the, the, the person, uh, the prison guard was, was made the prison guard for Mandela, because he spoke African languages, and he could read every word that Mandela, um, wrote and decide which part would be removed. And he himself, as a child, had been, uh, played with African children and a relationship of equality. He went to high school, learned how to be a racist, and then he ends up being a prison guard to, to Nelson Mandela. Mandela treats him with dignity and respect, and begins to teach him, uh, the true history, uh, of the country. And this guard on Robben Island, every weekend, he'd go home and go to the library and check out what Mandela had said. Um, and then, as I say, and the day Mandela becomes the president, there he is in a place of honor. So Mandela was teaching us that enemies can become friends. Hmm.

George (25:45):

You're coming to Dallas, uh, on April 26th to Southern Methodist University in a conference that's, uh, being sponsored by numerous organizations, including Faith Commons, uh, the Baptist House of Studies, the chaplain's office, and, uh, a a pastor a a group of, uh, chaplains, pastoral care people, uh, here in Dallas. Uh, and that conference is going to be, uh, titled Healing of, uh, racism and Oppression. Uh, can you give us a sense of, uh, when you think of those words, racism and oppression certainly have, uh, an enormous experience in South Africa with that. But here we continue to struggle in our country where, uh, racism, uh, is not legalized, uh, uh, but it remains under the surface of almost everything that's happening, uh, in, in our country. Uh, what, what stories, what approach can you, uh, bring from your experience to us as you, uh, join us here and, and talk about that subject.

Father Lapsley (26:52):

Well, thank you very much. I, I, I am always very heartened when people say I'm against racism. It's very encouraging. I get nervous when people say, and I'm not a racist. I have no racism in me. I think if we've been brought up in the white Western world, we've, we've imbibed some of that stuff with our mother's milk. Um, it, it, it's there. Um, and, and, um, often again, in the Christian community, we think if we said we are against racism, there's nothing further to be done. Uh, and, and I think it's a long journey for all of us to unlearn. Um, you know, out of the, the horror of, of George Floyd, uh, murder and how people responded, for me, one of the encouraging things that began to happen in the US almost for the first time, is it began to be a conversation about white privilege.

Father Lapsley (27:48):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I think white, the awareness of white privilege speaks to this unlearning journey. Um, and so, and of course, South Africa, we, you know, we have constitutionalized, apartheid, constitutionalized racism, which we call apartheid. Um, we, we, we then have a constitution that outlaws discrimination on the basis of race, gender, disability, and for the first time in the world orientation, secular orientation. Uh, so in a sense, we began to say, you've gotta get rid of all these forms of, uh, oppression and, and, and, and discrimination. But that doesn't mean that we'd got rid of racism, <laugh>. It was there, it was in the society that had been created on the basis of racism. And so that is an intergenerational journey, the journey of, of unlearning. But it's a journey for all of us of recovering our full humanity. And I think that that perhaps the most, the terrible, the worst wound of, of, of, of racism, as much as it's about economics and greed and all of that.

Father Lapsley (28:47):

But it's a spiritual wound of people thinking they are inferior or superior because of the color of their skin. Uh, so unlearning that, uh, is a, and it is a journey towards, um, healing and wholeness. And, and it is not that any of us will complete the journey, but at least if we've made, uh, our contribution, uh, to that. So I can say I've spent most of my life fighting racism, but I can't claim there's none of it in me. I hope I'm, I'm more and more able to mine and, and, and, and face, uh, and how in some situations it may come out almost, almost unconsciously. And of course, uh, even though I've spent much of my life fighting racism, I've also benefited from white privilege. I still benefit from my privilege even today. So I think that kind of, uh, self understanding and consciousness needs to, to grow everywhere.

Father Lapsley (29:40):

So, so, um, and, and I, I like the fact that it's racism and oppression because there are other kinds of, uh, oppression. I mean, I think perhaps the deepest wound in the human family is in relationship between women and men. Um, and, and, you know, in our work all over the world, there are two dominant stories. Uh, one is childhood trauma and the other is gender-based violence and every continent, uh, of the world. So, so the importance, uh, and, and in a way, in terms of gender-based violence, we have to work. We, it is not gonna end unless we work with the boy child, uh, unless the boy child learns. Um, healthy ways to express feelings, uh, as well, as well as to be in respectful relationships with, with the other, the other gender, um, as well. So I think that's, that's a worldwide conversation that we need to have. But it's a conversation that in the end, liberates all of us. I've always been fascinated in the Christian scriptures, um, where St. Paul says, in Christ is neither male nor female. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's very interesting. And perhaps in an age of gender fluidity, it's a very helpful text, uh, as well, because it's about being people in the end. Y

George (30:50):

You know, actually, uh, I think there's an even more interesting nuance to that particular text because in that, in that text he says, there is no longer Jew or Gentile, uh, slave or free. And then he says, male and female not, or, which has a sense to me that may be even, there's a hint of a continuum of male and female,

Father Lapsley (31:18):

Right. Male. Exactly.

George (31:20):

You see, it's not a binary choice. It's, uh,

Father Lapsley (31:23):

The totality of who we are. Yeah. Yes.

George (31:26):

Interesting. Well, we could explore lots of these things together, and I'll invite people to come and meet you personally and join us at SMU on Friday, uh, April 26th, uh, for this healing of Racism and Oppression conference. And thank you so very much for being our guest Father Michael Lapsley. Uh, we look forward to your visit. Thank you for this conversation. And God bless you in your work there in Canada. Even now.