Courageous Conversations: Sandy Ovalle Martínez on Responding to Social Injustice with Courage

Meet Sandy Ovalle Martínez, Sojourners' Director of Campaigns and Mobilizing. A mujerista theologian and an organizer, Sandy oversees mobilization and activist engagement around different justice areas including climate and environmental justice, immigration, women and girls, and peace and nonviolence.

In this conversation, Sandy and George explore how individuals and communities can equip themselves to respond effectively to social injustice, drawing on the rich teachings of faith to guide their actions. They trace the historical roots of immigration and examine the role of religion in shaping attitudes towards human mobility. Finally, they reflect on how we can harness our faith to navigate uncertainty and step boldly into a world in need of courageous advocates for justice and compassion.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:10):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to, uh, our podcast today, Sandy` Ovalle Martinez. She is the director of campaigns and mobilizing for the SojoAction, uh, division of Sojourners in Washington, dc. And Sandy, welcome to our program.

Sandy Ovalle Martínez (00:40):

Yes. Thank you so much for having me, George. It's such a delight to be with you and with the audience of this podcast.

George (00:48):

We are, uh, looking forward to the fact, Sandy, that you will be with us in Dallas at the, uh, end of April at the healing of racism and oppression conference that's being sponsored by numerous organizations, including Faith Commons, uh, will be at SMU at Perkins School of Theology. And I know you'll be speaking there. What is it that you're going to be addressing at that conference?

Sandy (01:13):

Absolutely. Well, I am, uh, delighted to be coming to a sense of near home. I spent much of my teenage years in Denton, Texas, so just about an hour north of you. So I'm looking forward to being back in that area of North Texas. And, um, during our time, um, at SMU, we will be talking about healing from oppression and racism, the South African and Latinx experience in the United States.

George (01:42):

Wonderful. Well, you certainly have a, uh, uh, a, a good background in addressing, uh, the Latinx experience. And if we could begin, uh, by you helping us with some terminology, I think many people, uh, who want to honor, uh, people of Latinx, uh, uh, uh, ethnic identity, uh, struggle with knowing what the right language is, uh, to, to say Latinx, Latino, Latina, uh, Chicano, chicanex, uh, chicanex, um, Hispanic. These are all terminologies that I think we would love it if you could help us clarify a little bit and what what's the best way to honor, uh, the, uh, this tradition?

Sandy (02:32):

Thank you. Yeah. So I think the best way to honor a people group is by addressing them in the way that they self-identify, right? And so, um, the term Hispanic was actually a term that was created in the 1970s for a census. And so that was seeking to group people around a language that they spoke or the ties that they had to their colonial histories in the countries of origin. And, um, the reality is that for many folks who come from countries in Latin America that are now in the diaspora here in the United States, that, um, many identify still with their countries of origin. And so terms like Mexican American or, uh, Puerto Rican, Cuban American, uh, et cetera, tend to be the, the dominant identities by which people, uh, function in their daily lives. Um, there's been several efforts to unite and have this pan-ethnic terms that unite people.

Sandy (03:43):

And sometimes those terms are helpful in terms of knowing how to distribute our resources, right, and, and giving the resources to the people that need them. Uh, but sometimes they also do a disservice in not being able to point out all the histories of, of people and united people that are very diverse. So the Latina groups that, um, that are here in the US are not a monolith. And you may have heard that we have folks that, you know, Latinx, uh, it's not a race. We are folks from all different races, um, that shared some similarities in the parts of the world that we come from. Um, and yet, um, have very diverse understandings of who we are. I prefer to use the term Latinx, and I should be updating all my bios, <laugh>, and all the, all the places where, uh, where this appears.

Sandy (04:40):

But I, I prefer the term Latinx. I believe it's a term that it's more inclusive of people who hold different gender identities. And, um, and it's pronounceable in both the English and the Spanish language. And, um, and I use Latinx with care because I know it, uh, often erases, uh, folks that are in the Afro-Latinx, like people don't picture, um, Afro-Latinx folks when they think of Latinx as a whole. So I, um, I struggle with what's a good, uh, label, but I think asking and being just like you did just now, uh, George is, is helpful.

George (05:20):

Thank you. So if there's an X on the end, it would be Latinx?

Sandy (05:24):

Yes.

George (05:26):

Okay.

Sandy (05:26):

Latina? Yes. That's

George (05:28):

Very good. Okay. Thank you very much. Well, this very Anglo, um, mind, uh, needs to get, uh, clear, clear about that so that we can do that well. Well, uh, in your work, uh, would you tell us more about what you do with Sojourners and, and what Sojourners is as a, as an organization?

Sandy (05:48):

Yeah. Sojourner has been around for over 50 years, and we are committed to putting our faith in action for social justice. As an ecumenical Christian-based organization, we equip individuals and the church to be able to engage with the issues of our days, um, to respond to the biblical call of social justice and in inspire hope in our communities. Uh, Sojourners has two arms. One arm is our publications arm. You may know us from our magazine and online publications, as well as the mobilization and advocacy arm that is the part of the organization where I work. And I'm the director of campaigns and mobilizing. And I help us think through how to, uh, equip individuals and churches to respond to the issues of social injustice in our life today. And then give opportunities through advocacy, um, advocacy opportunities for people to take action on issues that matter, such as immigration, social, uh, economic justice. We do, uh, racial justice and voting rights and early childhood development. So,

George (07:04):

Well, uh, I live in Texas and we don't have any of those issues here in Texas, so no need for you to come and address that to with us. Of course. I just, uh, this seems almost like it is, um, uh, point, point alpha for all of these issues, uh, here in, in our state. Can we talk about immigration a little bit? I think it would be, it would be helpful for us Now, you know, we, we have nothing it seems, but, but conflict over this matter in the state of Texas. And of course, we, we can't seem to get much progress out of Washington either, and haven't for, for decades now, because it seems that, uh, our political leaders would rather, uh, blame, uh, the other side than actually come up with solutions. Uh, we know that as religious people, we have a mandate to welcome the stranger, uh, that we, uh, there, there is within all of our religious traditions, roots of, um, mobility that seem to be part of our actual originating stories.

George (08:21):

You know, whe whether it's, uh, the exodus from Egypt, or it is the need for, uh, Jesus to have gone to Egypt, uh, to ha have fled, uh, or, or, you know, the, the nature of, of famine that has driven, uh, the biblical stories and, and the like. And then even the, uh, missionary, uh, journeys of the early apostles that have moved them from one place to another across borders. We have this deeply embedded in our religious traditions, and yet we have, uh, a counter, uh, movement that, that seems to be aligned with, uh, a a desire for, uh, stable national identity and borders and law and order and these sorts of things. How do you apply your faith to the work you do at this intersection of these conflicts?

Sandy (09:26):

Absolutely. So I think you are so right that immigration is one of the most polarizing topics in our society today. Um, a good place to start for me is always that immigration cannot be discussed in the abstract just talking about policies and talking about, um, security or people, or border, sorry, security or borders. But it has to primarily start with people. It has to start, uh, migration, human mobility. Human migration is about humans. And that we have to start with that. I think, uh, for those of us in the Christian tradition and in many other traditions, we have a belief that humans in the Christian tradition are made in the image of God, right? And so they are inherently, they carry that with them. And many religious traditions believe in the inherent worth and dignity of people as well. So I think to start discussing immigration, I wanna start with the people.

Sandy (10:31):

I wanna start with what, um, how we honor people in the whole process. We know that human mobility is natural. It has happened for millennia, right? Like it has happened for people, groups to survive, but also to seek thriving, um, better lives. So it is common for people to move places, um, to be able to raise their families, to be able to pursue the lives that, um, that are dignifying. So I wanna start with those things as a background. And I think for, um, as you said, our faith has many foundational narratives around, uh, migration, you know, uh, Abraham being called to go into a new land and to settle there. And so I see that as natural to these. And I think one of the biggest struggles that we have is that we make this an either or decision, right? And so an either or topic.

Sandy (11:37):

And so we're not saying, um, let's just open up, you know, no, and saying, let's just open up all the borders and let's have all these chaotic things. But I think the US has a history of demonstrating that we, um, are able to welcome people safely, that we are able to create communities of belonging. And so I wanna tap into the best of our identity that, um, that is at the, at the very local levels. I have seen countless churches, countless individuals, um, welcome others and create new communities that make space for people to bring their identities and bring who they are, and also, um, add to the fabric of the whole community, allow the community to thrive and to continue, um, moving forward. So

George (12:31):

When you talk about immigration, uh, and the struggle, uh, and the debate about it, it seems inevitable that we have to deal with the question of racism that's involved in it. Uh, because from the beginning of the, our country, uh, immigration has been dealing with a, a racial question. We know that, uh, the original Northern European Protestants, uh, that came to our country, uh, had a sense that they represented who America was, was, and was to be. And then when the Irish and Italians began to come, uh, they were Catholic. And that was a challenge to the reigning, uh, religious identity and ethnic identity of, of, of our people. And then of course, when, when Jews began to migrate, um, because of European pogroms and, and the like. And, and so every step of the way we seem to have been dealing with race. Uh, of course, I haven't mentioned the, uh, transatlantic trade, uh, slave trade and, uh, the, the, the fact that we, uh, dealt with Native Americans at the very beginning, that, uh, uh, in, in shameful ways. So, uh, now we are dealing primarily, it sounds like, with the southern border and people of Latina descent. And how do you address the elephant in the room? You might say that immigration is not, as you say, an abstract problem, and it's not a, a, a sort of racial n neutral, uh, matter. It, it does address this very sense of who feels like they have privilege and priority in defining who America is.

Sandy (14:37):

I think our immigration system works for some, and it is made for those that this nation has been most comfortable with. And so our immigration system has very limited ways for folks to come into this country legally. I was, uh, reading earlier about a Cato Institute study that quoted that only about 1% of, um, people can come to the US in a legal manner, because there are so many, uh, limited opportunities to do that. But even when, even when people do qualify for certain benefits, like being a, a spouse to someone, or being a child to a US citizen, um, the, or a parent to a, a, a US citizen as well, um, the, the opportunities are very limited.

Sandy (15:42):

One of the things that this immigration system does do today is that it is, um, heavily driven by profit in the detention centers. So there are detention centers that have been paid for that require a number of beds be filled every night because they've been paid for it. And so it's been heavily dependent on, um, nonprofit and on the, um, on the tactics that this country has used to deal with, with, uh, with new issues or with people that they fear, um, that is creating car serial systems that, uh, that incarcerate people that have not committed crimes, but that are, are seeking a better place here. And who tends to be incarcerated is people of lower income, is people, uh, who are, who don't have the means and resources who sometimes tend to be of African, the Afro-Latina descents. Um, people who are gender minorities tend to also be really discriminated in that system.

Sandy (16:56):

I think, um, the system works easier. You know, nobody talks about our northern border, uh, we really hear about that. And yet there are many Canadian CI Canadian citizens who live here in the United States, um, without the all the proper arrangements to do so. Nobody talks often about, uh, even the, the fact that we frame it just around the Latin identity, um, it's a misconception because there are high levels of migration of Asian populations, including people from India and China and other countries of Philippines, who are some of the major countries, uh, that are migrating into this, into this, um, country. So, um, I think there's been an over fixation, uh, into the, into the Latina side and into the border side of things. Um, there is a, there is a crisis. I will not negate that there is a humanitarian crisis happening at our border.

Sandy (18:01):

Um, but I think the problem doesn't start at the, at the southern border. The problem is deeper into the roots of, of this, uh, of this journey. And the roots of it goes back to the destabilization of countries in Latin America, many times by the US government as they've intervened, um, in different, uh, in different spaces. And the roots of it goes back to our ability to consider our global neighbors to consider our, um, our ties to other countries. Today, one of the biggest displacement, uh, reasons for displacement are climate, uh, change, right? And yet, climate change is not counted as one of the reasons to allow people to migrate, uh, and to be welcoming to other places. And so some of the countries that are the biggest polluters are causing lots of the destabilization in countries in Latin America where people are not able to grow their crops as they were before. So they're unable to feed their families. And so, um, when their countries are not, um, as significantly contributing into, uh, climate change.

George (19:16):

So when we address things like this, sometimes, uh, in being an advocate or an activist, we, we, we must be confrontational, right? Uh, and for, for many people of faith being confrontational carries with it a certain level of anxiety that we, uh, are destabilizing or we are creating problems or, uh, you know, we're troublemakers, uh, this sort of thing. Uh, and, you know, there's a certain element of truth to that. Uh, but if, if that becomes the, the reigning narrative for us, then how will we ever address injustice, right? And if, if we, if we do want to encourage people to become actively involved, how do we prepare them for having what this series of conversations is, courageous conversations, uh, for having, uh, opportunities to engage with public officials, with people in our own congregations, even with our own family and friends. Cindy, how do you train people and teach them to, uh, exercise their agency out of their faith values when it becomes tense or conflictual?

Sandy (20:50):

Yes. I love the title of this podcast with courage or this series of courageous conversations, because I think that, um, our faith moves us into that place of, uh, courage, right? And so for us, in the Christian tradition, we often talked about the renewing of our minds. Uh, we often talk about not conforming into the patterns of the world, and much of the work that people of faith do, it's already courageous. Looking at yourself, looking at the ways in which you have to, uh, change to be able to, um, to not conform to the patterns of this world is, uh, it's already courageous. It's courageous to address the ways that we treat others, all of the actions, um, many of the actions that are embedded into the faith, uh, practices that we follow are already courageous. And so this is another step, you know, becoming, uh, an advocate or becoming, uh, someone who speaks up, um, when injustice happens, is another step in that faith journey.

Sandy (21:56):

I think, um, one of the things that I tend to focus on, uh, with our early childhood development is on, and, and I'm, and I'm bringing this because I think some of this comes from the very, very beginnings of who we are. Um, empathy is developed in those early stages where folks are able to see each other, and sometimes we didn't get that ability to be seen or see others at a very early age. And so we have to retrain ourselves and our faith traditions provide for that. Um, Reverend Alexis Alva Tierra, one of our mentors, she often talks about the body of Christ and it, and she brings in that passage in Corinthians that for us Christians has so much meaning about, you know, um, the eye cannot say to the hand, I don't need you. And that we cannot just decide that we don't need other parts of the body.

Sandy (22:47):

But oftentimes our body is sort of, uh, the body of Christ, the greater family, the greater human family has been disconnected from one another. And so how do we reconnect one another? And so remembering that, um, that we are one big family, that we are one part of one body is something that helps us become courageous, is recognizing the image of God in somebody else, and recognizing that we are all connected, uh, in this greater human family, that you know, that our destinies are woven together. And that's part of what our faiths teach, that we are not just individuals, but we belong to the, to the wholeness of the human family. And, uh, with the natural world as well. We're integrated

George (23:35):

It. It's very interesting. A few of the things that you said just struck me. One, one of them being that we have within our own religious traditions, the spiritual practices to hold ourselves accountable for being changed and for, um, being converted. Uh, and, uh, so that be it, when we are doing that, then, uh, we, we are not simply saying, we already are finished product, and we need to work on you because you have to change, but we come with more humility, recognizing that we still are people in process. So, uh, we, we are engaging in that way. Right?

Sandy (24:18):

Yes. And if I may add, I think one of the other things like, yeah, that humility of being transformed, but I think one of the other things that I would add into how do we become courageous? I think it's, it's two things. One is it's about the form in which we are courageous. So sometimes that may mean that I am moving my resources to a, to a cost. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, sometimes it may mean that I am speaking to, um, family members or others about these issues. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> sometimes it may mean that we're marching, but there are different forms and recognizing what the form of our advocacy will take and the time recognizing that, you know, we have to be regulated. We have to be centered in our tradition, and recognizing that there are times to step in and times to step back.

George (25:10):

Okay. Good. Good. Another thing that comes up in, in what you were saying is a recognition that many Christians, uh, in this country are the people who are, uh, defending, uh, uh, uh, the limitation of, of, uh, immigration, even the building of walls. And the irony about that, it seems to me, and the tragic irony is that these are often people who have had long histories of wanting to, um, send missionaries around the world and, uh, and, and go into other countries, uh, to bring the gospel message. And here we have sisters and brothers of our own Christian faith coming to us, and we, rather than welcoming them, are trying to resist their presence. Uh, this notion of seeing them in the body of Christ, uh, and even if they are not Christians, seeing them as part of our human race, that we are obligated to, uh, seems to me to be part of the work we have to do in the American church. Uh, and yet it's, uh, a challenging work when the political language is fueling all of this otherness, uh, rather than ness, if I could put it that way. Togetherness.

Sandy (26:43):

Yes. I think one of the major failures of the Western Protestant Church here in the United States has been that often people think that in approaching scriptures, that they come to scripture as a blank, uh, blank slate. Yes. And yet we all have lenses, <laugh>, that are informing how we read and how we interpret scripture. Yes. Um, and I think we forget how much culture gets embedded Yes. With the faith, with, with the scripture, with what we're interpreting. And so when we do that mixing, and we forget that this scripture was written for a particular time, for a particular people in a particular context, and we decontextualize that and, um, and think that our interpretation is the right interpretation without, um, without acknowledging that God is working in a myriad of people, and that we are learners, that we are to renew in our minds consistently, and that scripture is alive, the word is alive, and so that newness can continue to calm, uh, into scripture over and over.

Sandy (28:07):

For us, that's a foundational text, right? And so for us, we go back into these spaces. And so I think oftentimes what has happened is that we have, um, forgotten that. And so, you know, people don't see the, um, we often don't see our lenses, right? Because those are like, we carry them. We we're not able to see them. A fish doesn't know they're swimming in the water until they're out of it. Right? And so, um, displacement, uh, is one of the ways in which, you know, for me, I was able to see, uh, how I was a part of the majority culture when I grew up in Mexico. I'm an immigrant into the us. And so it wasn't until I was in the US that I realized, like lots of things about my identity. So one of my encouragement is like, what would it look like for the Western Protestant church in the US to study scripture alongside other people, and to enter into this posture of humility Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to see the faith that other people are bringing Yes. To see, uh, how God is speaking through unlikely messengers, right? Which is what we see over and over and over in scripture.

George (29:17):

Yes. Yes, it is. It absolutely is. And, and the beautiful diversity of creation, uh, the beautiful diversity of the body of Christ, uh, and the beautiful diversity of various religious and ethnic traditions in America, uh, is something to celebrate, uh, not just to fear. I'm mindful of the phrase, uh, by the, uh, Sikh activist Valerie. K uh, she says, uh, when you encounter someone who is very different than other from you, and you begin to, uh, fear that person, uh, we should look upon that person and say, you are a part of me that I do not yet know. Mm. I love that idea. Uh, so

Sandy (30:12):

Absolutely is that acknowledgement that God is present in that person too. God's image is in them, and being able to be open and for us of Christian, uh, of Christian traditions, like we have a clear mandate to be in that hu humble pu to be transformed to make ourselves like Jesus, right? And so, um, who didn't take up a position of privilege, but rather humble himself. Yes. And so how would, how would our, our politics be transformed if we entered into relationships with our neighbors in a different space? And then I think one of the, the, I don't wanna limit it to just like those personal encounters. I think that that is, that is where we begin. But I also think that then we have to think about the systems that are beyond this encounters, right? So it's like we, we get to know people here, and we get to know their stories. And perhaps as we are in communion with many of the, uh, people who have been displaced by famine, violence, et cetera, we gotta then also ask why people are being displaced. Not just know the, just not just meet their needs at the end of that journey when they make it here, if they make it here. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. But, uh, I start asking the whys, who is, um, who and what powers are causing people to move?

George (31:45):

Wonderful. Well, Sandy, you have wedded our appetite so beautifully, and we look forward to continuing this conversation with you in Dallas. Uh, I know that, uh, people will, uh, perhaps want to follow you more, and they can go to, uh, sojo.net, uh, Sojourner, uh, website and, and find some of your, uh, blog posts and the like, and, uh, follow where you're going to be. Thank you for your witness and your work, uh, for contributing to our understanding today on Good God. And we look forward to seeing you soon.

Sandy (32:24):

We'll see you in Dallas.