Brian Kaylor: The Surprising Origin Story of Christian Nationalism
George is joined by Brian Kaylor, author of the book "Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism"—a critique of the concept of civil religion, arguing that such expressions are far more dangerous than we realize.
In this conversation, they discuss his new book; the dangers of a softer, friendlier Christian Nationalism present in many mainline protestant churches; and the difficult work of figuring out what is American and what is Jesus's teachings. To make this distinction, we must ask ourselves, "What are they trying to accomplish? And how are they treating our fellow citizens in our increasingly pluralistic society?"
"It's cathartic to point at...evangelicals, and say, 'Look at them.' Right? But what if we actually did something in our own circles of influence, in our own communities to reduce Christian Nationalism?" - Brian Kaylor
Watch the video, here.
George Mason (00:00):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to this episode of Good God, Brian Kaler. Brian, we're glad to have you with us. It's, uh, I'll introduce you a little more in a moment, but it's, uh, a pleasure to have you and to be able to talk about your new book.
Brian Kaylor (00:21):
Oh, it's great to be here, George. Thanks.
George Mason (00:23):
So, Brian Kaylor is the President and editor in Chief of Word and Way, which is a Christian, uh, media outlet, and, uh, produces, uh, lots of articles on religion and culture, uh, in, uh, on, on a weekly basis. Uh, and he has recently co-authored a, a book with a minister named Bo Underwood, and Bo is a Disciples of Christ Minister Brian is a Baptist minister. Uh, we, we like to call our disciples colleagues Baptist with a small B, don't we, Brian?
Brian Kaylor (01:00):
That's right, yeah.
George Mason (01:01):
<laugh>. Uh, there's, there's a lot of commonality, uh, between Baptist and disciples of Christ, or at least our brand of Baptists. And when I say our, I mean, uh, those, uh, in the, I suppose, uh, non Southern Baptist, uh, uh, world of Baptist. So, uh, you've written this book together, uh, it is called Baptizing America, how The Mainline Church Built, uh, Christian Nationalism, uh, something like that, that subtitle. Anyway, uh, and it is due out officially June the fourth. Uh, but if, uh, any of you, uh, are watching this or listening before June 4th, the publisher will send you early copies if you pre-order. So, uh, get on that right away. But Brian, this is a pro, uh, uh, provocative, uh, book, uh, because I think everyone is, uh, learning about and becoming, uh, either alarmed if, uh, they're on one side of this or supportive of on the other side of, uh, this movement called Christian Nationalism.
George Mason (02:10):
Uh, it seems to be identified almost exclusively in our time with white evangelical Christians. And much of the case being made is that it is an attempt by a certain brand of conservative Christians to, uh, make America great again, to make it into a Christian nation. And of course, it claims that this has always been the case. In some ways, they're not wrong, uh, because as you make this argument, uh, the mainline liberal or progressive Protestant Christians, uh, from the founding on have, uh, increasingly, or not increasingly, but have consistently perhaps, uh, found ways of also expressing, uh, the desire for America to be defined as a Christian nation. So, uh, what, what spurred your interest in this? What was the origin of this claim, uh, that you and Bo wanted to make in the midst of this conversation?
Brian Kaylor (03:25):
Yeah, that's a good question because it, this was a journey for us over several years. We've been writing about Christian nationalism, and that has been primarily focused on the way white evangelicals have been pushing and arguing for Christian nationalism in our contemporary politics. And one of the things that we started to notice as we were writing about the claims of those espousing Christian nationalism, is that the, the quote evidence that they would point to, to say that we were supposed to be a Christian nation, you know, classic things like under God and the Pledge of Allegiance or the national motto and God We Trust, and a number of other examples that we unpack in the book, all of these things were actually put in place by mainline Protestant clergy and politicians. And after we started to notice this trend on, okay, there's something interesting going on here.
Brian Kaylor (04:13):
The white evangelicals are getting all of the criticism today, and, and they have deserved criticism today for what they're trying to do with Christian nationalism, but they didn't create a lot of the problems. And so we need to, if we really wanna deal with the danger of Christian nationalism, both to democracy and to our Christian witness, we need to know how we got here. We need to know the origin story. And so that's the origin story of this book was like, alright, what, what happened here? What's the part of the story that's not being told?
George Mason (04:41):
Right. Well, and I think that's really very true is that, you know, we, uh, we, the, the criticism of the Christian right today and the labeling of, uh, them as being Christian nationalists, which incidentally, there is a growing bristling, uh, happening from them about being so labeled and as if, you know, this is a new thing or as a, it's a bad thing, uh, nonetheless, um, there's a lack of self-criticism from the left, you might say about, uh, their role in creating the context, uh, that now, uh, the conservative Christian movement has entered into, but they didn't create it is your argument. Uh, and, and so, uh, how do we get attention focused on ourselves so that we're not, uh, simply, uh, criticizing others without taking responsibility? I think this is a, a significant point in your book, and I'm wondering if you're finding, uh, people who are willing to listen to this and pay attention in the, in the mainline church.
Brian Kaylor (05:55):
So we are, which is encouraging thus far. I mean, you know, it, it's, it's early. I'm sure we'll get the pushback as well. I mean, as you know, the, the forward to the book is written by Reverend Adrian Thorn, senior minister at the Riverside Church in New York City, you know, church aligned with American Baptist Church, USA and the United Church of Christ. And she comes from the Reformed Church of America and Presbyterian Church, USA tradition. So we got like, you know, four mainline Protestant denominations all wrapped up there in that representation. And so that was really important for us to get that kind of stamp from her as well as some of the other endorsers of the book that have embraced the argument that we're making. And so that, that is, that is exciting to see, because one of the things we really hope for a, as we write, you know, with appreciation for the mainline tradition, so as you noted, you know, Bo has been a mainline Protestant his entire life.
Brian Kaylor (06:43):
Uh, I've had more of a journey. So I, I grew up in what would considered a conservative evangelical Southern Baptist church. Right. But now would identify with the mainline side of Baptist life. I've, you know, been, uh, on staff with churches associated with Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which Pew now identifies as a codes as a mainline, uh, denomination, as well as American Baptist Churches, USA. And so, you know, we come from this saying, Hey, let's look at our own community. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, and what can we do to make a difference towards, you know, separating the wheat and the chaff? Because if you grew up in a, in a, in a, in a white Christian Church in the United States, Christian nationalism is just in the air that you breathe. Yes. And so we have to do that difficult work to figure out what was American and what was what Jesus taught. Yes. And those are not always the same thing.
George Mason (07:34):
<laugh>. Well, uh, you know, part of part of what you're asking in, uh, this, uh, self-reflection for, uh, more mainline, uh, Christians, is that they consider the ways that they have been complicit, uh, in, uh, promoting Christian nationalism. Uh, and I I will say, uh, as a person who is a Baptist and who has long claimed a commitment as a strict separation in terms of separation of church and state, nonetheless, as a pastor, I have made concessions and I have, uh, you know, uh, put the flags in the sanctuary on Memorial Day weekend, independence Weekend and Veterans Weekend, only those three, you know, uh, as a gesture toward, uh, a, a recognition that these were, uh, times when people were particularly sensitive to patriotism and, and the like. Uh, and we would, you know, in these services at times, sing hymns that were really filled with Christian nationalist language.
George Mason (08:52):
Uh, and sometimes that bothered me a lot. And other times I did it as a matter of expediency to be candid about it, you know, just because it's difficult to hold, uh, uh, all, all of these folks together, uh, at times in churches. Uh, but one of my, um, one of my younger colleagues who was a pastoral resident at our church, took that same philosophy, went to the First Baptist Church in deland, Florida as his first full-time pastorate. And within about a year was no longer the pastor there because he could not, he took the flags out of the sanctuary, and this very patriotic church filled with lots of veterans and retirees could not get past it. Uh, this is, you know, part of our Baptist tradition. And this was a church that was more or less affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Church Fellowship. So I think, uh, I'm, uh, an an example of people who have been complicit in this in a sense. Uh, but, uh, I think maybe now we're becoming more and more aware that, uh, it's not just them, it's us. I guess the question I have then, after my confession, uh, Brian is I'll,
Brian Kaylor (10:18):
I'll bless you here,
George Mason (10:20):
<laugh>. Thank you father, uh, for I have sinned, yes. Uh, but, uh, I, I think when I, when I read the book overall, and I, I felt these pangs of conscience about it, and we, you know, realize how much American history and religious history is about, in a sense, struggling to find the right, uh, valence about the relationship between, uh, religion and government. Uh, I, I think there's still going to be a question that I'd love to hear you talk about, and that is, if we really did this in a pure way, uh, would we end up with a naked public square, you know, to use, uh, newhouse's old term? Uh, would there be, uh, a a sense in which we are dividing ourselves in some way that becomes difficult for people to live as both Christians and Americans, or Jews and Americans or Muslims and Americans in a way that we have to sort of set aside our religious identities to enter into public life?
George Mason (11:41):
I, I think that's partly the fear of this notion of a complete secular, uh, government. So could you address, how do we have the kind of secular government that our constitutional founders seemed insistent on? Uh, and we've struggled against in a way by this, uh, Christian nationalist, um, approach with our motto and our, you know, uh, uh, uh, diff different ways that we've added under God and, uh, and the like in God we trust, uh, h how do we arbitrate this in a healthy way going forward if we were to successfully defeat Christian nationalism and return to, uh, this approach that you're talking about?
Brian Kaylor (12:29):
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a, a great question in thinking about implications here. And I, I'll note I appreciate your kind of self-reflection there. And we met that in the book that we have both served as pastors at churches that have the flag in the sanctuary. And so we're, we're, we're coming from this as, as ones that have been on a journey as well. And, and part of my journey was being a member of a Mennonite church for several years in Virginia, and then coming back to a Baptist church visiting my parents one, one year on the, the, the Sunday closest to 4th of July and being hit for like mm-Hmm. The first time actually seeing all of the patriotic hys and the flag there in the sanctuary. And it hit me differently than when I had grown up with it as just normal because it, it really actually isn't normal.
Brian Kaylor (13:13):
It's in, in the long stretch of, of even just American Christian history. The flags are a pretty recent edition that we've traced a little bit of that history connected to particularly World War II and some other conflicts in the book. And, and so yeah, the, the question then is, alright, so then what does it look like? You know, and I think that, I think it is important to separate these two things. There's one thing about what we're doing when we gather together in the church, that we need to make sure that we're very clear about who we are and, and why we're there, what kingdom we have gathered to serve. And, you know, you can think about a, a, a church in some ways, like an embassy. So when the United States sets up an embassy in another country, when you walk into that embassy, you are in the United States, and the flags that are flying are the United States and, and the churches there.
Brian Kaylor (14:00):
These are the intimacies of the kingdom here. But it's also true that when we walk out the doors, we don't cease to be Christians and we shouldn't be silenced as we walk into the public s space. And I, and I think, you know, we can look at like the advocacy of a a, a Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. As a, as a different model. Because what Christian nationalism is doing is it's arguing that to be considered a a a real American, to be truly American, you have to be a Christian. And, and often, usually it's a, a narrow slice of Christianity. So, right. If, if the, if the Christian nationalism that we saw storming the capitol on January 6th takes over in the United States, you and I won't count either as part of the power structure, right. Because we're not part of the narrow slice of conservative Christianity that would be established.
Brian Kaylor (14:46):
And so that's important. But what, you know, king is doing, it was doing, was creating a, an interfaith movement, you know, marching alongside with rabbis, with people of no faith. And it was a focus on a democracy of actually us leaning into becoming a democracy. Uh, and because, you know, our democracy is actually pretty young. It really doesn't happen until everyone can vote in 1965. And, and it, it it's this idea of, of making all voices equal. And so, yes, he's speaking from his faith, but he's not demanding that people legislate and adopt his faith. He's saying everyone has a right in the public square to, to equality, to being an equal citizen. And so there's a difference there. You could, it, it both like a, a, you know, a a a Tony Perkins or a Mike Johnson or someone today, right? And, and a and a king might quote similar verses and might both quote the Bible, but what are they trying to accomplish? And how are they treating their fellow citizens in our increasingly pluralistic society? And so I think that is a really important difference. We can still talk about our faith, but we don't demand that all Americans follow it.
George Mason (15:53):
So I think you're pointing out a difference between the kind of Christian nationalism that the mainline has traditionally supported, which really goes more under the rubric of civil religion, I would say, and the kind of Christian nationalism that we're seeing among white evangelicals today. Uh, yes, it's both a brand of Christian nationalism, uh, but the, the mainline approach seems more committed to what Eisenhower said, essentially, which was that, uh, it ultimately comes down to a commitment to all men are created equal, which is a democratic principle. Now, we know that the Confederacy did not agree with that, and the Confederacy actually was a Christian nationalism. Hmm. And it was very clear that their understanding of the nation was that all men are not created equal. I think part of the fear today, Brian, is that, you know, democracy can be used by the new Christian nationalists or the, the Christian right? Without this commitment to all people being equal. And ultimately then democracies, um, uh, procedures will end up with outcomes that undermine democracy, right? That will, will have what effectively is a caste system again, and a, uh, a a a kind of, uh, autocracy, uh, not democracy. So how do you respond to these differences while being critical of the mainline? Isn't there a significant difference between these kinds of Christian nationalism?
Brian Kaylor (18:05):
Yeah, that's, that's right. And one of the ways I've kinda talked about is in, in some ways the Christian nationalism that we're critiquing is a softer, friendlier, cuddly version, you know, than what we saw on January 6th. But that doesn't mean that we should overlook it or that we should ignore it. And part of the issue, I think what we have is we see is that what has happened is, I think there's 2, 2, 2 issues. One, we see that people have been discipled for generations to accept this kind of softer, friendly Christian nationalism, 4th of July, you know, services and that sort of thing. But that can then become the gateway drug towards a more aggressive form. I mean, let's not forget that Donald Trump is a product of the mainline Protestant tradition, and so we can see where that got us. Uh, and so that's, that's one thing that, that I think is important there.
Brian Kaylor (18:47):
And I also think that the demographic shift has, has changed so dramatically since the, you know, late forties throughout the 1950s, the time period that we're looking at this, the, the last big wave of kind of Christian nationalistic feelings that we had that we're tracing in the book was in that time period. And we ha we're, we're now in another wave and these waves kind of come, you know, every 50, a hundred years or so in our, in our country. And in that time period, mainline Protestants were the dominant tradition. So that's why they're the ones that are establishing everything. But we were largely a nation of Christians. So 92% of Americans in 1967 are saying that they're Christian. And that number had been in the, in the nineties Right. Really throughout American history. Now it's only 68%. Right. So we have a third of Americans do not identify as Christian. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so today, the, the same things that mainline Protestants were doing in the fifties might've been unifying, might've seemed okay, but today would, would feel different. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> would, would have, would pack a different punch. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so while I do think it's true that the mainline Protestant version wasn't as dangerous, part of that's because the, the, the nation has changed.
George Mason (19:57):
Right? Right. So the, so a lot of this re sort of re I don't know, um, going back to reverting to the idea of a Christian nation, which we deliberately rejected, uh, when we left England and when we, we had our American revolution, uh, seems to be rooted in some crisis in which we feel a threat from the other. Uh, we, we had that crisis in the Civil War that the threat, that the liberation of our chattel slaves would, uh, mean the end of southern civilization and white hegemony and those sorts of things. Uh, so therefore the, the secessionist movement, uh, we had the threat of communism in the middle of the 20th century that created this whole wave of, uh, adding the language of divinity to our public life and, and documents and, uh, pledge of allegiance and the money and these sorts of things. Uh, what's driving the threat today? Is it the changing demographics, would you say?
Brian Kaylor (21:31):
Hmm. Yes. I think that is, I think that it is that fear of, I mean, I think, you know, you know, Robbie Jones has captured this will, well, with the end of white Christian America, right? It's that, that fear that the nation is changing both in racial demographics and in religious demographics. And I think you're right. I think fear drives so much Christian nationalism. It empowers Christian nationalism, and then it's a cycle. Christian nationalism also inspires us to be fearful of the other. And so it, it is both creating Christian nationalism, both creating fear and being empowered by fear. Mm-Hmm.
George Mason (22:02):
<affirmative>,
George Mason (22:05):
One of the odd things about the rallies that we see that are basically like revival meetings, these political rallies that are, uh, reawaken America and, uh, and of course political rallies of, uh, Donald Trump and the, like, there, there's so much Christian symbolism going on, and those of us who are studying this and analyzing it, say as you just did. And, uh, as Robbie Jones has made the case, uh, that fear of, of, of change is undermining, uh, underlying this, how do you account for the extraordinary joy that you see, uh, these people expressing when they come together? Uh, you know, it, we would think they would be expressing their fears primarily. But what we witness is there is this euphoria of them being together, this joy. And to be candid, for those of us who are more in the mainline tradition, we don't, we don't have that same experience of, of joy in our v view of, of things. And this is part of the critique, I think from the right, is that, uh, more liberal and progressive, uh, Christians are constantly unhappy with the country and its progress and the like, and they are able to celebrate. I I, I wonder if there's an analysis there that you have that, uh, that gives some balance to this idea of fear being a generative, uh, factor in Christian nationalism.
Brian Kaylor (23:56):
Yeah. I, you, you touched on something I think is really important. A lot of the analysis of these political rallies focuses on the politics of Christian nationalism, but the use the co-option of Christian liturgy and songs and symbols is really significant. Uh, as you know, I, I sometimes go to these events, occupational hazard to, to go and see 'em in person and to, to report on them. So I've been to a Reawaken America tour with, you know, Michael Flynn and Roger Stone and Eric Trump, and, you know, these are the normal figures that are at these, these events. And, you know, they, they sing the songs that we sing in church and they pray, but they do, they sing the, the triumphant songs. And so I think that starts to get a little bit right. There is this sense of, like, it, it's, they're not the hymns of lament and they're not the, you know, more reflective, these are the triumphant songs.
Brian Kaylor (24:44):
We're coming together, we're going to win, and we're gonna win. 'cause God is on our side. Yeah. And so that I think, you know, does really power them. But then they also, I mean, they, they have baptisms. I mean, that was, that was the toughest part for me. Reawaken America was, you know, there and watching people getting baptized into this movement. And then I was at a Sean Fot event at, at a state capitol, and he's doing communion and passing out communion to everyone. Right. And it's, it's, it's becoming this alternative church, if you will, that that is so wrapped up with MAGA politics. Yes. As, as a, you know, chief kind of confession, uh, or creed of this, of this, you know, this church. And so that's really alarming. But when you're there, when you're in this movement and you have like-minded people, right.
Brian Kaylor (25:28):
It's you, right. There's excitement that can come from that. And they, they have this, I mean, the rally around the flag thing, and it can happen during war, right? Even when we're, we're, we're first scared, but then we all get, you know, pumped up and get ourselves excited and ready to go fight as a nation. You know, we saw this after nine 11, you know, these kind of moments happen. I think the same thing is happening inside the, the MAGA movement. And they, on the one hand, they're, they are worried about the they direction of the country. They're, they're scared of the other, but when they come together, they can get themselves, you know, rallied up. They can sing the, the, the happy, you know, Christian songs, uh, declaring that God is great and victorious and you know, God's on our side, and that can get them excited to go and, you know, wage battle.
George Mason (26:13):
Well, I, I guess one of my hopes is that, uh, as we take seriously your critique of the mainline tradition, and we look at ourselves, uh, and our complicity in it, uh, that we would, we would also not just take responsibility for what we have done, but we would, we would also figure out positively how do we address our current times in a way that ignites a vision of, uh, of our faith and our country that is compelling enough for us to have enthusiasm for it. Uh, the fact that we have such a low voting turnout to begin with, you know, is an indication to me that, uh, that, you know, there's, there's a lack of passion around democracy generally. Uh, but when you, when you conclude the book, you give us some prescriptions. So you're, you're, you're kind of saying, okay, here's the case. Uh, but I think it's important for you to outline some of those things. What can we do? What's positively can we do to begin to reconstruct our understanding of the relationship between church and state?
Brian Kaylor (27:35):
Yeah, I think, I think it's great. We do try to end on this note. All right. So we, we can do something about it. And, and that's why actually one of the key reasons about this book is we think that mainline Protestants, you know, more moderate progressive Christians are the ones that should be willing to do something. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's cathartic to just point it though, like evangelicals and say, look at them. Right? But what if we actually did something in our own circles of influence in our own communities to actually reduce Christian nationalism? So I think that's, that's really important. And, and of course, we start with exactly what you and I have both done a little bit of here is, you know, look at your own church. Look, when, when have you been complicit? When have you know your church, you know, advanced Christian nationalism even have a nice cuddly, patriotic kind of version of it.
Brian Kaylor (28:20):
But, you know, how can we change our own church, our own denomination, our own context? You know, we do have, you know, some, some advice about the flag and how to have that conversation in ways that hopefully don't get pastors fired. But it's an important conversation that we need to address in our congregations if we're gonna make a difference. And I think, I think that's, I mean, that's really what our call is. It's like, let's do this self-reflection. Let's look at the ways we can change. And then outside of the church, uh, one of the things that we really argue for is that democracy is itself something that we should be willing to defend. Mm-Hmm. And that we don't need to, you know, prop up, you know, God as the justification for this. We're not gonna argue that democracy is God's will or you know, that you particularly that a particular can is we just think democracy is itself a better system than any other option.
Brian Kaylor (29:12):
I mean, you know, you, you and I both come from the Baptist tradition and, you know, our early Baptist experience persecution from, you know, Christian colonies, I guess it wasn't a Christian nation yet, but Christian colonies, we're literally persecuting them. Right. We know what happens. We can see what happens when some people are treated as second class citizens because of their faith. That's right. That's not good. And so democracy is itself good. It's worth defending, it's worth pushing for. And David Gushy has, you know, his book about the defending democracy from its Christian enemies. And, you know, Christianity right now is often lining up against democracy in the United States and around the world. Right. And we would love to see Christians standing up and saying, democracy is good. Right? The democracy treats all people as equal. And you know, you can believe that if you're a secularist. You can also especially believe that if you're a Christian, that all people are created, Ima created equal in the image of God. And so let's treat all citizens equally. And I think that's something we could rally behind. And it's, it's under attack right now. Democracy is threatened.
George Mason (30:14):
It, it, it really is. And it is an extension, as you say, of our Christian faith because, uh, our driving duty as Christians is to love our neighbor as ourselves. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. To love your neighbor means to defend your neighbor's, right at the very least, to exist and to practice his or her faith or lack thereof without consequence in public life. And if we can, if we can do that, we are exercising a politics of love in a sense. Uh, whereas Christian nationalism is, uh, exercising a politics of power to protect one's own place and one's own right to dominate. I think that's a significant difference between the two outlooks and promoting democracy is a, a, I think a more natural outgrowth of our sense of, uh, Christian imperative. So
Brian Kaylor (31:26):
Wonderful. Yeah. I think that's right.
George Mason (31:27):
Great. Well, Brian, congratulations on the book, you and Beau hope it does really well. It has certainly spurred some very interesting thoughts on my part. And I'm sure in, uh, our circles, it's going to be talked about quite a bit. Uh, but it, it's an important contribution right now to this, uh, conversation of Christian nationalism. And we thank you for all the work you do, not just this book. Uh, and thank you for being on. Good God with us.
Brian Kaylor (31:54):
Thank you so much for having me, George. This was a lot of fun.