How to End Christian Nationalism: A Conversation with Amanda Tyler
In this episode of Good God, George Mason sits down with Amanda Tyler, Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and lead organizer for Christians Against Christian Nationalism. Amanda shares insights from her new book, How to End Christian Nationalism, exploring the steps needed to dismantle this dangerous ideology while promoting religious freedom for all. From defining Christian nationalism to addressing its impact on public schools and political power, Amanda calls us to engage deeply in protecting democracy and fostering pluralism.
Amanda Tyler is a lawyer, religious liberty advocate, and leader in the fight against Christian nationalism, working to ensure the separation of church and state and to promote justice for all.
Watch the video, here.
George (00:00):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and Public Life. I'm your host George Mason, and I'm glad to welcome to our program Amanda Tyler. Amanda, good to have you.
Amanda (00:11):
Great to be back.
George (00:12):
So, Amanda Tyler is the Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and the lead organizer for Christians Against Christian Nationalism. And I think that really leads us to say you have a new book I do, and it's titled How to End Christian Nationalism. Uh, and it is a step-by-step, uh, approach, uh, that has actually eight steps to it. Um, the Buddhist would say that's a good number. Uh, <laugh>.
Amanda (00:48):
I didn't even think about that when I, there
George (00:50):
You go. Exactly. This is an interfaith, uh, organization. Yes. And in fact, I think it's important to say perhaps too, that, uh, you are involved in an interfaith marriage and that you are not simply, uh, leading a Baptist organization, uh, but you embody in your own life and experience what that that is, uh, uh, what that reality is, uh, for the promotion of religious pluralism in this country. Uh, so your husband is Jewish? Yes. And, uh, you live here in Dallas and are a member of Royal Lane Baptist Church and your husband Temple Emanuel. So, uh, anyway, uh, I was also taken, I didn't even realize this, uh, your son's name is Micah.
Amanda (01:33):
Well, his Jewish name, his
George (01:35):
Jewish name is Micah.
Amanda (01:36):
So his, his name is Phelps, which is a family name. Right. But as part of the Jewish tradition, we do, uh, we did a naming ceremony for him. Right. And so his Jewish name is Micah. Ah,
George (01:48):
Okay. And the significance of that would be,
Amanda (01:53):
Um, just the verse around which I've oriented my life, Micah six, eight. Right. And God's commandment to us to do justice, to love, kindness or mercy, and to walk humbly with our God. And, um, so when it came time, and, and that was a beautiful tradition that I was unfamiliar with, um, from my Baptist upbringing, but when we had Phelps and knew that we had this moment, um, I, it was really no debate. That was the lovely, the name I want, I, I wanted, and, and fortunately my husband agreed. Yes, yes.
George (02:25):
Well, and of course, it's Christian scripture as well as Hebrew scripture. And it is a, a, a verse of scripture that I think gives, uh, a, a wonderful foundation to, uh, the, the work of public advocacy Mm-Hmm. Of, uh, seeking the common good, uh, that, that grows out of faith, but, uh, is for people of all faiths and no faith.
Amanda (02:50):
Yeah. And I, I give just a little small exegesis of that text in my introduction and what it means to me. I, I love it because it is so elegantly simple and yet endlessly challenging. Right. I think sometimes we can complicate our theologies in ways that make them difficult to access even for ourselves. And, and this one is one we can really both, both memorize and take to heart and think about how it is it is daily applicable. Right. I think to the, to the lives that we're trying to live. Right.
George (03:24):
And you come to this, uh, having grown up Baptist, uh, in Austin, right? Yes. And, uh, having attended numerous Baptist churches in your life, but then also feeling a call to law and so you are a lawyer, and yet you are finding yourself in, uh, in, in this world of religious advocacy. So can you, can you tell everyone how did that come to pass? Yeah. How, how did all that connection happen between your own faith and your, your legal, uh, training? Mm.
Amanda (03:59):
I just from an early age have seen these, these dual tracks in my life of religion being this incredibly central, uh, and component of my life, religious practice as far as membership and involvement in a Baptist church was something that my family, uh, instilled in me, and that we practiced from an early age, and then at the same time, at a very early age, feeling this calling to law, government and politicsa uh, in a way that I can look back on. And now that I have a young child myself and see was really quite odd in some ways that not all children have this preoccupation with law and politics in elementary school, and yet I did. And so, um, I, I do my sense of calling and is that, you know, what you are interested in as a young child and throughout your life, that that is God's whisper to us about where we should, um, orient our lives.
Amanda (04:58):
And so that has been a consistent call to me. And what led me, even as a college student to work with BJC Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, the organization I now lead, uh, just brought these interests of mine, religion, and particularly Baptist Christianity alongside religion, uh, uh, sorry, alongside politics, government and law. And I thought then, you know, this is really where all of my interests, all of my gifts, all of my colleagues come together. I didn't know at the time that I would one day come back to the organization to lead it. And yet that is how, um, my life has led me, and for the past now almost eight years leading this organization and leading it at a time when we've seen this rising tide of Christian nationalism.
George (05:47):
So, I wanna say a few words. I want us to, to get into the book now about this, but I think when, when you and I are talking about promoting religious liberty and, uh, you are working for the Baptist Joint Committee on for religious liberty, I think there are a lot of people out there who are like, wait, wait, wait. You keep saying Baptist promoting religious liberty. It doesn't sound right to them because that's not the experience they have with, with Baptist. Many people have more of an experience with Baptists that are promoting Christian nationalism than fighting it. Yeah. What would you say to them about, uh, about how we've gotten ourselves into this fix? Yeah.
Amanda (06:29):
So I think there's a lot there. I mean, I think one is, um, a, a fuller understanding of the history of the Baptist movement is helpful to understand kind of why there even is a Baptist joint committee for religious liberty and a consistent strain throughout the four centuries of Baptist life of individuals, both lay and clergy, uh, standing up for religious freedom for all people. Right. And doing so out of a deep theological commitment to freedom. Yes. All and freedom in all of its forms and how it essential to authentic faith is that it is freely chosen and that no person, including any governmental authority, is to interfere with that private choice of an individual and how they pursue their religious callings um, and that includes religious freedom, includes both the ability to say yes to God and the ability to say no to God.
Amanda (07:25):
`And so we stand up for religious freedom as zealously for atheists, as we do, uh, for all forms of Christians as far and including people from all other faith traditions. So I think that's the big picture of Baptist and religious freedom. And then I think most people's experience, especially in the United States of, of experiencing Baptist Christianity, if, especially if they aren't one themselves, is some understanding of what the Southern Baptist Convention is. And, and because that is the largest Protestant denomination in the country, it is also the largest of the many different expressions of Baptist denominations or, or, or denominational bodies in within the Baptist movement. Um, and that particular denomination, I believe over the last several decades has sacrificed its commitment to religious freedom for all people. Its commitment to the separation of church and state in favor of political power that has been gained in many ways through an embrace of this ideology. Uh, and this movement of Christian nationalism, which looks much more like Christian privilege, Christian supremacy, um, and a pursuit of power and not a fulsome religious freedom for all people, uh, that keeps the government out of the business of religion.
George (08:44):
Well, I think you've already moved us into some definition of Christian nationalism, and step one in your book is define Christian nationalism and really learn what it means. And I think I, I want you to unpack that a little more and, and help us define it because, uh, what we are hearing, I think from a lot of people, some of them politicians, uh, is, is that, uh, they, they want to say that this is a new terminology and that it doesn't really apply, or it's just being used pejoratively to discriminate against Christians becoming involved in public life. Uh, and then there are some politicians who actually own it and who are saying, yes, I'm a Christian and, and I love America, and that makes me a Christian nationalist, and I'm proud of it. And, and they don't even really fully know what that means, so let's define it and then we can know what to do about it. Right? Sure.
Amanda (09:45):
So, so Christian nationalism is a term is relatively new, but I think it describes a very old and longstanding problem. Um, so the definition I use in the book, and I've consistently used over the last several years is Christian nationalism is a political ideology and a cultural framework that tries to merge American and Christian identities. It's part of a larger phenomenon called religious nationalism. Yes. Which is just a merger of religious and national identities, um, just by the fact that it's a merger, we can tell that it's the antithesis of an idea of separation of church and state. Um, and Christian nationalism also tells the story that to be a real American one has to be a Christian. Yes. And in that way, undercuts the foundational constitutional promise that one's belonging in American culture. And society should never depend on what one believes or how one identifies religiously or even if one is religious or not, uh, but Christian nationalism tells a different story. It says, to really belong here, you have to be part of this Christian majority. And, and recently that what what qualifies as Christian is an increasingly narrow band, um, that really is, uh, one that accords with a fundamentalist reading of biblical text that's often in line with conservative political priorities.
George (11:09):
Now, Amanda, we, you and I know that, um, while the, uh, founding of this country in constitutional America made a deliberate choice about not being a Christian nation, uh, many people like to go back to the colonial period and the period which we decided to leave, which was in a sense, uh, devoted to a kind of Christian nationalism, uh, and they, they make the case. And in fact, for at least 50 years, what we've known is there is this building of a case among ordinary Christians that know the country. People are telling you this, that, that we're not a Christian nation, but we really are. So this notion of the myth of the Christian nation is a lot of what is underlying this growth of Christian nationalism. Would you help dispel that for us a little bit?
Amanda (12:14):
Yeah. So, um, and I'm glad that you brought up that this myth of a Christian nation goes back before the founding of the United States. Right. Which of course happened with the US Constitution. Right. That was when the country was actually constituted. Right, right. Um, but but for centuries before this myth of a Christian nation kind of takes the origin of the American people back to the pilgrims. Yes. Right. We're coming up on our annual celebration of Thanksgiving, and the mythology just keeps on coming about that really, uh, sacrifices that kind of founding. Um, and you know, some of the language that goes with that is this idea of America as a city on a hill a new Jerusalem Yes. An idea that this was a chosen land. Right. Um, and that God's providential hand is guiding, uh, these early settlers and then eventually the founding fathers through history that God loves America best. Yes. And we hear echoes of that even in American civil religion now. Like God bless America um, in ways in God we trust this idea that we are god's people in America, and America is God's country. Yes. Deep theological problems here. Yes. You know, that really undercuts, uh, the idea that we, you know, memorizes children from John's Gospel that for God so loved the world doesn't say for God so loved the United States. Yes. But the myth of America as a Christian nation does tell that story. Right. And it, it cherry picks the, the history quotes from the founding fathers , it overemphasizes the religious biographies of a lot of these early settlers claims that this was founded really exclusively, or predominantly as for religious freedom. Yes. But ignores the more complicated and tragic history. The fact that Massachusetts Bay Colony itself became a Christian nationalist colony.
Amanda (14:09):
It did, where enforced one established religion banished people, including people like Roger Williams, who were our forebear, who were victims of, of religious persecution for being out of line with the ruling um, class there, it, it ignores the, the implications for religious freedom, not to mention the implications in religious freedom for the native populations or for the enslaved populations. Yes. You know, this myth of America is a Christian nation totally ignores the fact that other people practiced other religions. Right. Um, I, something that I've learned through my research through for this book and in other, other talk is that, um, up to a third of the enslaved population actually practiced Islam. Yes. Right. And we don't, we, we don't even recognize that when we talk about who belongs. Right. And who's counted in this myth of America as a Christian nation Um, so the, the myth also is of course, directly contradicted by the founding document itself, the US Constitution.
George (15:10):
But most laypeople, uh, they don't have a degree in history or religious history, and they feel that during their lifetime, perhaps things have changed. And I think some of the MAGA movement is really reinforcing that, or airing that sense of anxiety or grievance. And so, you know, we refer to, uh, things like in God we trust, and there was a time when maybe culturally we were more comfortable with religion and public gatherings and things of that nature. And, and now it feels like that's being censored to them and things of that nature. So, uh, there's, there's kind of this reaction and this resurgence to kind of come back and reinsert, uh, religion as being foundational to our moral life as a republic, that sort of thing. What's the rejoinder to that? What's the challenge that we would levy to this, uh, anxiety there that is cultural and political right now?
Amanda (16:28):
Yeah. I, I think it is an excellent point. I, I think one is those kind of healthy on days, the days that are that are really idealized in many ways, you know, from like the 1950s Right. For instance. Um, which I mean, let's just say from the outset, were not ideal for many people in this country. Yes. Um, particularly with, um, Jim Crow segregation. Right. Violence, the denial of rights for so many people anti-immigrant bias, um, anti-woman bias. Yes. You know, so many people were actually really left out of full inclusion of our society during that time. Um, but that was also a period of high tide of Christian nationalism. Yes. Some of those,
George (17:09):
This is an important point.
Amanda (17:11):
Yeah. Some of those things like the, that's winning God we trust became our national motto, anti
George (17:15):
Communism.
Amanda (17:15):
It was about, you know, fear over the height of the Cold War, that's when under God was added to the Pledge of Allegiance. These were not founding era Uh, institutions, these are relatively modern institutions. So it was a creation at the time to try to merge American and Christian identities. And part of that did include this, um, pretty widespread church attendance. Yes. Now we could have an interesting conversation about how free that was, was that something that one felt one needed to do in order to prove one's Americanness, to prove one's good standing in society in the context of a regime that was calling out certain people as un-American? Yes. How, how faithful was that time, really in people's hearts? I think that could be an interesting conversation. But I, I think if we are trying to extrapolate from that one period of an American history, what the, all of the past of American history has been, that that is not an accurate way to think about it.. But we also need to think, I think as we, of the society that we have now and the rich pluralism and religious diversity that is, has been made possible in this country in ways that have been, thankfully to this point, largely peaceful um, because of legal protections for religious freedom for all people. Um, that yes, we have a Christian majority, but that doesn't mean that we exclude people from other faiths from full inclusion in our, in our society, or that we should, um, I should say.
George (18:58):
And in fact, you know, faith commons as an organization, one of our, um, reasons for being is to say that while we, uh, as a nation are legally committed to a kind of robust pluralism, the on the ground reality has never really been that. Exactly. And so amplifying the voices of other religions so that they are not minoritized or marginalized, but they have a full, uh, say in what it means to be American and how we do this project together is part of the goal. And I guess that leads me back to the book again, uh, because the book is about how to end Christian nationalism, and we'll talk about the steps to doing that, that you outlined too. But I think it's important to say that the ending of Christian nationalism is not, uh, the end of religious, uh, interest in this country or religious participation. Right. I think when people hear us talking about fighting Christian nationalism, they often think, oh, you just want to drive religion outta public life. And that's not at not all what we're really talking about. Right. So, alright. So all those stipulations aside, ending Christian nationalism so that there is a, a free and open participation in public life. I'm gonna read the chapter titles. Okay. Okay. Because I think everyone needs to hear, where's this book going? Right. So chapter one, name and understand the threat of Christian nationalism. We've been doing that. Step two, ground yourself in God's Love. Three, denounce violence. Four, commit to the separation of church and state Five, take on Christian nationalism close to home. We're gonna talk about Texas and local things in here. Just a minute. Six, organize for change. Seven, protect religious freedom in public schools.
George (21:05):
And eight, take your place in the public square. Right. So when we walk through this book, there is a sense of progression to it that gets more and more local, more and more about what you can do yourself in being involved. So let's talk about things close to home. What would be some examples of that? And we are here in Texas, we might as well use Texas as an example of that. What would you point out are some of the challenges that if people say, I I agree with you, how do I get involved? What, what should we do?
Amanda (21:47):
Yeah. Well, I mean, when I say take it on close to home, I mean, in our local place, but also really close to home, like maybe in your home. Ah-huh. Right. Maybe you have someone that is in your family or your extended family Right. Who is embracing some of these ideas. Yes. And, and I think key to all of this is I talk about throughout the book and whenever I speak on this about Christian nationalism as, as a political ideology and a cultural framework, not as a label to throw it someone good. Yeah. Right. And that's because we all have continuing opportunities to either embrace or reject Christian nationalism every day. And we, we can all be complicit in accommodating it, um, if we're not taking an active role to resist and reject it. And so I I want us to not be into line drawing.
Amanda (22:39):
Yes. Um, about this is a problem just out there. And so where is it? That's why the first chapters are really about examining where might it be in here? Yes. Where, where might we have, have absorbed and I, in writing it, I even show some of my own evolution on the thinking of the topic while writing the book you know, because some of by having, being in conversation with people from other perspectives other racial groups. Other religions. Right. It changed the way I think about it because sometimes from my own privileged position, it's really hard to see the problem completely, clearly. So once we do that, you know, in our families, in our friend groups in our religious institutions themselves. Yeah. Where have we, through centuries of Christian nationalism being mixed in with our own practice of Christianity, where has it come into our own worship practices?
George (23:29):
Okay. I love the part where you got the do hidden when you joined Yes. The church <laugh> and, uh, and, and right there in the Christian hymnal is the section of patriotic hys. Right. Right. Like, and then there's, you know, our how many flags exist in Christian sanctuaries, you know, so Yeah.
Amanda (23:46):
It's the kind of thing that once we start looking for it, we'll notice it. But it's been hiding in plain sight Yes. For all this time that that's right. And I think it's important for us to at least start to see it more clearly ourselves. Right. And being able to name it. Right. Um, but then there are so many opportunities for engagement in all of our local communities, but here in Texas, we're really seeing an all out push from the movement of Christian nationalism to use the levers of power to, uh, advance that particular agenda. Yes. Um, in a number of different public policy areas, but particularly when it comes to the public schools. And that's why I decided in the book `out of all the different policy areas I could have talked about, um, to concentrate on what we see happening with public schools.
Amanda (24:34):
Um, so I I, and I think Texas is a, is a good example because there's a disconnect between how extreme the policies are that we see coming out of state government and where people are really are on the ground. Yes. So there's actually been a quite a bit of research and public polling around how prevalent of an ideology is Christian nationalism. The national average is about 30% of Americans are accommodating or embracing it. 70% are resisting or rejecting nationwide. Texas is above the national average, but not that much above the national average. 37%. That means a strong majority of Texans, 63%. That means those are Democrats, those are Republicans. Those are, those are people who are, you know, not just liberals, but conservatives too don't want this.
George (25:25):
And yet our elected officials are behaving as if it's, you know, a 90% mandate.
Amanda (25:32):
Exactly. It's, and that points to how anti-democratic, I think this movement really is. It doesn't reflect the majority of Americans or the majority of Texans, but because of a concerted and well-funded effort those who are pushing a Christian nationalist agenda have essentially taken over the state legislature here. Right. And so they have been pushing very extreme policies that are out of step with what, um, most Texans want. Right. So just an example, uh, in 2023, Texas became the first state to pass a school chaplain law. Yes. That encourages the hiring or accepting as volunteers, school chaplains in public schools without any restriction on what the chaplains could say or do with the children. Um, so they could work to proselytize kids in public schools. That law passed from this very conservative legislature, but when it went to implementing it on the ground in school districts across the state, um, the vast majority.Of school districts decided not to expand with the school chaplain program. Right. And that was due to effective advocacy from people of all faith in none, including a number of Christians, including a number of Christian chaplains Yes. Who work in other contexts who explained how divisive this would be and how harmful this would be to people's religious freedom rights. And so I think that shows that, you know, it takes effort. It takes organizing, it takes educating ourselves about the issues, but that we have placed in the public square to bring our faith to bear, not just for ourselves, but for all of our neighbors. And that there are opportunities to resistance to this authoritarian theocracy that's being pushed.
George (27:17):
And you've just, you've just mentioned, uh, advocacy work, uh, but you also distinguish in the book between organizing work and advocacy work. And I think it's an important distinction that is, um, not an either or both end. And there's, you know, uh, each of them is involved in, in the other in a sense. Uh, but since North Texas is the first local or regional chapter of Christians against Christian nationalism Right. That you've created, uh, I think it's helpful to, to identify what is community organizing versus advocacy.
Amanda (28:01):
Yeah. So community organizing is, is very ground Upwork. It is incredibly relational. Yes. It is about bringing our neighbors together in community to one, just get to know one another across all of our lines of difference to understand what brings us to want to work together to end Christian nationalism, but even more importantly, what are we building for where are the areas that we can make our community more equitable? We can make it more just for everyone who lives in our community. How do we identify what changes are needed in our local community to build `the kind of, uh, life that we want for everyone here? Um, that relational discernment. And then action work is incredibly hard work.
George (28:56):
Time consuming.
Amanda (28:57):
Time consuming. Yes. Long haul work. Right. I'm talking about decades of work,
George (29:03):
Thousands of conversations. Yes. Small group meetings, coffee, and, yes.
Amanda (29:07):
Yeah. And it, and it's, you know, a lot of this organizing is two steps forward, one step back especially if we're really doing it in an equitable way that doesn't just, you know, continue to perpetuate white supremacy in the process. Yes. Right. How do we bring, how do we really work with our neighbors from all different faith, ethnicities, and racial groups. How do we work together? Yes. Um, in ways that where the white people aren't always the ones leading and pushing. Ah. Right. And I think that is the hard work that I really want to encourage people to get engag ed with. And at the same time, we have to respond to these urgent, you know, uh, policies that are being pushed on us by, by the state legislature or by school boards or city councils. Right. And so that's more the mobilizing and advocacy work.
Amanda (30:02):
And so it is a both and. But I was just, you know, we're, um, talking before the election, I was listening to a podcast that had, um, some conversations with voters, um, in Philadelphia and, and they were talking in that conversation about, you know, we're gonna vote in this election for national election, but we're really thinking about what do we need in our community? How are we really meeting the needs of our neighbors. And so they were both organizing and mobilizing at the same time. Good. And I, and I, I, that resonated with me at the kind of work that we're really wanting to do on the ground here in North Texas.
George (30:40):
So as we, as we close our conversation, and I could go on and on with you a about all of this, and again, I wanna recommend how to end Christian nationalism. Uh, you can find it, um, all the places you find your books, wherever,
Amanda (30:53):
Books, wherever you buy your books.
George (30:55):
Um, thank you for writing the book. Uh, but you mentioned that we are talking, uh, before the election. This will air after it, so we don't know what's going to happen. No. Uh, when you are listening to this, understand that we are, uh, recording this on Halloween. And, uh, so I think, uh, I'd be interested in what you would offer to those of us who are now gonna be watching this after knowing the results of our national election, which regardless of whom you voted for or what you hoped would take place, now we find ourselves in a new position. What would, uh, your encouragement be to people, uh, who are either elated or, uh, discouraged by the outcome of this election?
Amanda (31:48):
Yeah. Well, I think that one, I hope that you voted , right. Because that is the most important civic patriotic duty I think we have in this moment. Uh, it is the foundation of our democracy. Um, I hope you help someone else to vote in this election. Um, because that is also a civic duty. Um, I, as I, I've been traveling around talking about the book, and some people are asking, you know, are we, are we on the precipice of authoritarianism? Like, where are we going? And, and I often say, look, in some places in this country, we're already far down that road. Um, but we will only live in an authoritarian regime now given our constitution, given all of the structure that still is in place in our country, if we act like we're in, in an authoritarian regime. Okay. And I, I will say, I'm, when you're listening to this, I'm also, I am concerned about the specter of violence and how that's being used to threaten free and fair elections and w e have to reject that. We have to stand up and defend the fairness of this election. I, I am confident in the election officials that have run that are running this election, that whatever the result, it is a fair result a nd we have to be able to accept the results of the election, whether it's something that we voted for or not. Right. And that is a civic duty in this moment, because if we lose public confidence in elections, if we lose the opportunity for every American citizen to vote for their, for their future, then we are gonna lose the entire project. And I think in this moment, um, because of how everything is so fragile, um, we have to recommit, um, to the American project without equating it with whatever our faith tradition may be. Okay.
George (33:48):
Well, Amanda Tyler, thank you for joining us on. Good. God, thank you for your book, how to End Christian Nationalism. And we will be prayerful and hopeful in the days to come, and hopefully many more people will become engaged, not only with the book, but with the, uh, mission of ending Christian nationalism so that we can find one another and bless one another, uh, again, in this country, regardless of your religious identity or lack thereof. Absolutely. So, thank you so much. Amen.