John Munayer: Understanding Israel–Palestine Through a Theology of Neighbor

Many American Christians want to understand Israel–Palestine but feel overwhelmed by history, headlines, and competing narratives. In this conversation, George Mason and John Munayer cut through that noise with a grounded, deeply human look at the lived experience of Palestinian Christians, the shifts happening in Palestinian theology, and why humility and attentive listening are essential for anyone seeking clarity right now. They explore everyday metaphors like the olive tree and olive oil, the weight of Holy Saturday after Gaza, and how a theology that truly blesses one’s neighbor can guide faithful engagement.

John Munayer is the Director of International Engagement at the Rossing Center for Education and Dialogue and a Jerusalem-born Palestinian Christian theologian engaged in peace-building, research, and interreligious work.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:00):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to the program today, a new friend for me, John er. And he is a Palestinian Christian, uh, from East Jerusalem and is, uh, here in Texas and in Dallas on a book tour, and also, uh, with a colleague talking about Jewish and Christian relations after Gaza. And so it's a delight, John, to have you with us and looking forward to our conversation.

John (00:33):

Thank you so much. It's a privilege to be here.

George (00:35):

Great. So John, uh, you're, we talked about you being on a book tour, so you have a new book, uh, as a Christian theologian and a Palestinian, and this is called the Cross in the Olive Tree. And I think, um, for many people, you know, there's a sense of, um, there are staying with the cross means for Christians. Maybe they don't, but, uh, uh, the olive tree becomes a great metaphor for you in this book and also for Palestinian Christians. Can you talk a little bit about that?

John (01:07):

Yeah. So the olive tree for many Palestinians, whether they be Christian or Muslim, is, uh, really almost a sacred being. Uh, we connect to the, to the, to the olive tree. It sustains our life in many, many different ways. And the reason why we put the cross and the olive tree, because the olive tree really represents Palestine Yes. And the cross our faith. Yes. And how do these two interpret one another? And especially during our current, uh, moment in time. So this is a book that is bringing eight Palestinian theologians for women for men, part of a new wave of Palestinian theologians Yes. To engage with the current moment.

George (01:45):

Yes. And let's talk about that new wave. I think it's important to say that Palestinian Christian theology is not a static thing, uh, that it is a living, uh, community, and that you have a new generation of people coming up. And how would you describe the shift that you feel like is happening in Palestinian Christian theology?

John (02:08):

Yeah. Uh, the, just like the climate for olive trees. So does our context constantly change And therefore there's a need to engage with different questions that Palestinian Christians are facing on a daily basis. And a lot of our elders have done wonderful work to allow us now to engage, um, with topics that they've already sort of engaged with and, and dealt with. Right. And, uh, we're trying to, um, expand slightly the horizon of Palestinian theology. So Palestinian theology for a lot of its academic work has been mostly focusing on challenging Christian Zionism. Yes. And our book is not trying to challenge Christian Zionism. Our book is to engage with people who care about justice and human rights for Palestinians, and how can we, as a movement become more effective, and how can we, uh, be better witnesses to the gospel? Uh, so that's sort of the change.

George (03:03):

And I think we probably, for our audience, when you use the language of Christian Zionism, everybody doesn't know that. So, uh, you know, tease that out for them and let them know what you mean by Christian Zionism.

John (03:14):

Yeah. So when I say Christian Zionism, I mean, in a broad sense that Christians, uh, sort of have this support for the modern day state, state of Israel, um, on, on theological grounds. So they believe that this is, uh, part of a fulfillment of prophecy. And they'll, you know, cite different scripture for Ezekiel, for instance. Yes. Uh, or they'll, uh, quote Genesis 12, right? Uh, so this idea that Christians have a mandate to support the modern day state of Israel, but I also mean Christian Zionists in the more, uh, circles that, that are progressive Yes. Where you find progressive Christians who are, uh, sort of, uh, very much in support of the state of Israel because of sort of their, um, post Holocaust theology. Right. The post, uh, uh, theology where they don't necessarily believe that the establishment of the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but there's still a theological mandate to be in support of the state.

George (04:14):

Yes. Yes. And I think we're talking about an indigenous Christian theology now emanating out of Palestine. And for many people that's a new thought in, in the West. Yeah. Uh, but the, the language of indigenous Christian theology shouldn't surprise us, given that, you know, this is where Jesus was born. And you know, it, it's not like there has not been a continuous Christian witness since, since the beginning. You, you have a story about your brother.

John (04:50):

Exactly. Yes. It's, it's strange to, to, to tell Christians abroad that there's Christians in, in the Holy Land. You know, this is where it started. And we see ourselves as a churchless started with Pentecost. Right. And we're still there. Yeah. Uh, and I have a funny story with my brother, where he's walking in the streets of Jerusalem and a evangelical Christian who's there to sort of, he's on a evangelism trip in the Holy Land, sees my brother and starts talking to him, and he thinks he's an Israeli Jew. And then my brother says to him, I'm, I'm actually, you know, a Palestinian Christian, you know, and, uh, you know, this evangelist, uh, then says, oh, really? You're, you're, you're a Palestinian Christian. When did you convert? Right, yeah. Assuming that he converted from Islam. Right. And my brother answered 2000 years ago. Yes. Right. Right. We are the continuation of the early church. Right. And we see ourselves, uh, as the fifth Gospel. Right. We are there to, uh, tell people about the gospel, uh, and show them the historical biblical sites, right? So we all, we see ourselves almost as a guardian to a lot of the important sites for Christians around the world to come and visit and, and learn how the sort of, the Bible becomes real.

George (06:00):

But when Christians go to the Holy Land, they often go to these sites and see the dead stones, but they should be interacting with the living stones, which is the continuing Christian community there. Right. You

John (06:14):

Know? Absolutely. I think, uh, people forget that a lot of, uh, holy land trips and pilgrimages, or even vacations in general, are highly politicized Or people just scared to visit, you know, historical sites. Yes. But what we as a community of living Stones are trying to do is to engage with our brothers and sisters outside of Palestine to show them the land, but also to tell them about our stories. Right. Uh, because our stories are ones of also deep suffering and pain. And unfortunately, some of our Christian brothers and sisters abroad have been, uh, in support or supportive of that oppression.

George (06:50):

Well, you mentioned progressive Christian Zionists who support the state of Israel, uh, institutionally in part out of a sense of guilt over the Holocaust and the suffering of Jews, and the need for them to have a safe and secure, uh, place in the world and, and the like. And, uh, and, and yet there is another story of a people who have had, uh, an experience of deep suffering and loss, and now even genocide in, uh, in Gaza. Uh, and this is the Palestinian experience of, uh, indigenous people. What Israel is, a state of Israel celebrates as Independence Day Palestinians, uh, on the same day commemorate that as the nakba. Yeah. Explain that to people and what this, you know, the history of this region, uh, is more than one narrative. Yep. Right. And, you know, here in America, we are wrestling with this question of what is our narrative as a nation? And people want to control the narrative and say, it, it's, it's just what happened in 1776. And, but black Americans are saying, wait, there's a story of enslavement as well, and we're part of that story. And so we have competing narratives, and that's true in the holy land as well. Right?

John (08:14):

Absolutely. Um, four days ago, it was the first rain in Palestine, and that means it's the olive harvest season. Uhhuh. That's how we know. And I remember one year when I was a kid, we went to the Olive Grove to pick olives from the land that was stolen from us. The Israeli government confiscated the land. Yes. And my grandfather joined us, and he was telling us about the story of how the land was taken from him. A soldier forced him out of his home, and he hid in the local church Wow. In order to, to, to stay and survive. And I think many people don't understand that the establishment of the state of Israel happened on the expense of the Palestinian people. Right. And whilst the shaah and the persecution of Jews and antisemitism was real in Europe, the way that people have decided to find a solution for that is by, uh, doing it on the expense of the Palestinian people. And this is sort of the root of the conflict itself.

George (09:11):

Exactly. And you know, so when, when you talk in your book about the olive tree, you actually go beyond the notion of the olive tree as a symbol of the Palestinian life and heritage. And you actually expand the metaphor to olive oil. Yes. And it's three different uses that you, you give. I think that's a beautiful metaphor for the, the significance of the living community and how it is to be heard and honored today. Could you describe those three?

John (09:47):

So there's three different theologies that we name. The first one is the olive oil in the churches. So if you go to churches in Palestine, you'll often see olive oil. We use this to bless people, or even farmers will bring their olive oil for the olive oil to be blessed. And this sort of represents the theology of the church Yes. And the clergy. Which has sustained Palestinians in many, many different ways. As I mentioned, my grandfather hid in the church. The second olive oil is the olive oil of the soap. Uh, in Palestine we have really good olive oil soap, and that represents the academic theology because just like olive oil is, uh, soap is there to sort of cleanses of toxins. Are academic theologies there to cleanses from colonial or imperial theologies. Or Zionist theologies. And finally, we really want to highlight the olive oil of the lamp.

John (10:37):

So when you, uh, crush olives to extract the oil, there's a certain amount of the oil that is not fit for consumption. And traditionally it would be very cheap, and that's the oil that people would use to light their lamps at home. So this is the theology of the people. We're young, old, all together, neighbors come around. And this is the theology that they, uh, sort of live on a daily basis through our different culture, customs, our rituals, our greetings, the way we eat, the way we're hospitable And this is really the theology that sustains the people. Yeah. Because during genocide, it wasn't necessarily the theology of the church or the academic theology that really helped people on a daily basis. Yes. It was theology of the people. And we, we kind of think about it as this, the context is the olive groves. The theologian is the farmer. Yes. And the oil is the theology. Okay. So what type of theology we're producing, and we want to do it in a spirit of community. 'cause when we go to pick olives, we do it as a community. Right, right. Young, older, everyone together, men, women. So we want this new wave of Palestinian theology to mimic Yes. That type of olive picking, because at the moment, our olive groves are, and the ground is soaked in the tears and blood of the Palestinian people.

George (12:04):

Having said that, um, what would you like American Christians to understand about their Christian siblings in Palestine and how we relate going forward, what it's been like in the relationship and what you've believe would be healthy and helpful as we go forward?

John (12:32):

Yeah. In, in the book, the, the cross on the olive tree, we invite Christians to walk with us in the olive, olive grove. We're not asking for American Christians to be superheroes and and leaders or saviors for us. Right. We simply ask them to walk with us side by side in the context that we live in, so that they can learn and see what's happening in Palestine and Israel. Right. And in that sense, be responsible to, to how a lot of, uh, the events and oppression that we experience are actually funded by a lot of American Christians Yes. And by the American government. So we want people to learn about our situation, but also not to act as saviors . To simply be brothers and sisters in Christ, to come and hear and listen. And, uh, another metaphor we use in the book is the day of holy Saturday During Easter, a lot of Christians wanna quickly jump from Sunday, sorry, from Friday to Sunday From crucifixion to resurrection From death to life And we invite people to be in that space in between Yes. Holy Saturday with us. 'cause we're experiencing deep, deep trauma. And that space is a space of trauma. Uh,

George (13:47):

And that is especially true after Gaza. Absolutely. So we find ourselves now with the announcement of a ceasefire and the promise of a peace plan, uh, which, uh, we all pray will be, uh, promising, fulfilled, and, uh, and move forward. However, um, it would be easy at this point, especially in the West to say, okay, yes, it was bad, but now we're finished, and now let's just move. Would you, let's just put this behind us and let's just move on. Yeah. But that would not really honor Holy Saturday, would it? Exactly. I mean, if we, if we put it into terms that you just put it

John (14:30):

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think we need to learn from history, right? There's many different tragic events that many people have failed to deal with and recognize in a real way. And then we've reproduced these processes, and this is so an invitation for American Christians to embody a hermeneutics of humility. Ah,

George (14:48):

There you go.

John (14:49):

A her hermeneutics of humility to come and learn and see what is happening And also to take responsibility. Yes. For a lot of the tragedy that has happened through this genocide,

George (15:00):

You're here with the Rossing Center for whom you work, uh, the Rossing Center for Education and Dialogue in Jerusalem. And this is a remarkable inter-religious organization that, uh, promotes, um, the building of peace through conversation and other kinds of relationships, uh, and, uh, a a lot of the work you do, uh, and, and your particular position, I think is international engagement. Yep. Uh, director and, um, but, but it is trauma based. Yeah. And so when we talk about Good Friday to Easter, living in that holy Saturday, uh, these kind of conversations, if we're going to do more than superficial, what do Jews believe? What do Christians believe? What do Muslims believe? And let's eat hummus together. Um, the, the getting to the point of honoring the trauma and listening, tell us how you go about that and why that's so important.

John (16:00):

Absolutely. So, you know, we, we need pressure from outside. And, and this is sort of the, what, what I'm calling Christians really to, to, to do. But we're trying to build the movement from within Palestine Israel, a movement that seeks justice, equality, and peace for all. And we believe that if peace and justice were taught in schools and universities as seriously as math was taught, yeah. We will see a completely different reality. Yes. And we do so using trauma informed methodologies, because whether we like it or not, both Palestinians and Israelis are traumatized. Yes. And, uh, or experience different forms of trauma, and then have tapped into their collective historical traumas. Yes. And it's very hard for them to, to, to get out of this, uh, uh, sort of, um, net. And what we're trying to do is to help people engage with those very sensitive topics In a responsible and careful way in order to go through a transformation. Yes. Because it's very easy to bring people of different religions or ethnicities and just talk about things that unite us and eat together, as you mentioned, but that can actually further oppression if you don't deal with the structures and the systems. And that's what we're trying to do.

George (17:12):

And I, I think it's, uh, it, it's important to say that if we're, if we're going to move forward, um, it, it's going to require that we stop just saying, you have to listen to my narrative, but rather tell me your narrative. Tell me about your pain and your story. Uh, because there, there is a kind of, uh, experience that I think we all have where, uh, in, in, in the post October 7th time, if you want to defend Palestinians, uh, to Israelis or to Jews generally, you have to first give your bonafides as strong as possible of how you condemn Hamas' attack. Right. And how you do not wish for the state of Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth and all Jews driven into the sea. And on, on the other side, there's a kind of, uh, sense at times of, uh, are you willing to condemn the occupation and the colonialism and the Zionism that has been oppressive since 1917, really, not just 48. Right. And, and, and when we get into that kind of realm where we have to, we have to like somehow justify, uh, our sympathies with one group or another before we can even reach the humanity of the other. This is an exhausting and never ending cycle. It feels like, John.

John (18:53):

Absolutely.

George (18:54):

What, what would you say to people who are, find themselves in that bind in their own religious communities and their interfaith conversations? Yeah.

John (19:01):

I think that condemnations and statements have become very cheap. Yeah. Something very easy that sort of people do and, and kind of tick a box But what we're here really trying to do is to completely transform relationships. Yes. And in order to transform relationships, we really have to deal with certain subjects that haven't been addressed And to really take a equality in a very serious way, because I don't think usually people equate Palestinian lives in the same, uh, sort of value to Israeli lives. And if we truly abide by those standards, I think it's gonna lead us through much more productive, uh, lanes of, of conversation. And what we're trying to do also is to help people differentiate between their feelings, emotions, and needs or interests Yes. And their political positions. Yes. So when we're engaging with one another, we need to understand that you might feel scared or fearful for your family and security and so on and so forth. But that doesn't mean that your position needs to be one of colonialism and superiority. Right. And this is specifically the case when dealing with, uh, Israelis or, or Zionists, whether they be Christian or Jewish, is that we need to have real conversations about how certain Zionist ideologies are very much supporting this imbalance of power and dehumanization of Palestinians, uh, and prioritizing the one side over the other. So we have to have difficult conversations.

George (20:27):

Well, and the, the Rossing Center is a place that is practicing that very thing in Jerusalem, in the Crucible where all of these difficulties are taking place. And you and your partner, Hannah, uh, Bensky, uh, who is with you on this trip, um, I, I know that on October 8th, you had to look across the desks at each other and say, okay, what, what are we gonna do together? Right.

John (20:52):

Yeah. And I think me, me and Hannah and my other colleagues as well, we understand that our liberation, our security, and our, uh, justice is interconnected. Yes. If she doesn't have security and justice, I don't have it. And vice versa. Right. So it's very easy for us then to see how October 7th was a horrible, uh, event And also the genocide in Gaza, right? It's, it's, it doesn't have to be mutual exclusive. Right. Uh, and together we are trying to work in order to, to push for a better reality for all people.

George (21:22):

And if, if religion is not promoting the full dignity and, uh, and humanity of, of all people, we should question our religion. Yeah. And this is a time when we should be doing that questioning, what is the heart of our faith? Sometimes American Christians, uh, struggle with how they should feel about Israel and Palestine, and we follow the news and we're confused and we listen to our hearts and we're confused, and it's overwhelming to us, and we just throw up our hands and we pray, uh, and ask God to work it out. But there has to be more for us to do or to understand, can you help us know what we, we should think and do next? Yeah.

John (22:12):

Many times when I meet with American Christians, they feel overwhelmed. They say there's so many details and history, and, and, and they feel that it's complicated and so on and so forth.

George (22:19):

And it's never gonna be worked out. It they've always fought.

John (22:21):

Exactly. And therefore they really stay away and kind of shy away from, from, from the, uh, current situation in Palestine. And what I say to them is the same thing that my parents told me when I was growing up, trying to understand all of what was happening around me, is that they gave me a compass. And this compass basically said, if the theology or the politics of whoever around me is not blessing my neighbor, there's something wrong with my politics and my theology. Nice. So you don't have to be a theologian, you don't have to be a historian. You don't have to be an expert in politics. And I think this is something that most people can really know, is if my theology is not blessing my neighbor, there's something wrong with it. And I think the minute we understand that our love of God is interconnected with our love of neighbor good, it will really help people to engage in Palestine in a real way.

George (23:13):

And this is actually a great way to engage with Jews as well, because the love of God and neighbor is fundamental to their, the structure of their faith and, uh, and, and the heart of it. And, and so, but it also reminds me, John, interestingly, when you say that of the story of an Amish man who is asked by someone, are you a Christian? And his response was, I don't know. You'll have to ask my neighbor. Hmm. There's that hu hermeneutics of humility that you're talking about. Right. And, uh, if our faith is not other centered, if it's always about protecting ourselves, right. You know, and defending our rights, but not the rights of our neighbor, as you said earlier, our security and future and wellbeing and freedom is bound up with our neighbors. Yeah.

John (24:06):

And it's connected to the good Samaritan. There it is. Who, who is our neighbor? Yeah. As Palestinian Christians, we feel like that person that was beat up and, and robbed and naked in the ditch. Ah, and we have the priest or the Levite, or Christians Yes. Pastors passing by us. Oh. And not doing anything about it. We even have, we've even seen American pastors come to, uh, sign bombs Wow. That have been dropped on children in Gaza. Oh man. And it really feels like they're the Levite or the worse than the Levi of, and the priest who just kinda look and, and continue on, but actually are really participating So it's really the, the gospel of Jesus is extremely simple. But very difficult. Yes. At the same time. Yes. And this is sort of our call to our brothers and sisters.

George (24:54):

John, thank you so much for being with us. A good God for coming to Dallas for sharing in the way that you are and for promoting, uh, this kind of building of peace that, uh, is, uh, hopeful to us all. I

John (25:07):

Really appreciate it. Great.