Faithful Dissent: A Gun Owner Asks Texas to Rethink Its Gun Culture, with Scott Spreier
Scott Spreier hunts birds, owns shotguns, and thinks Texas should license and register an AR-15 the way it does a pickup truck. In this conversation, he and George Mason, who have been neighbors and fellow church members for years, talk about growing up in Kansas when guns were tools, how gun culture in Texas has become tied to identity and fear, and which reforms he supports, including registration, extreme risk protection orders, and age limits.
They discuss why lawmakers keep resisting measures he says most Texans want, and how Scott’s volunteer work with young men leaving prison taught him to get to know people before labeling them. Scott also explains why his faith and his stage of life led him to turn outward in retirement.
Scott Spreier is a retired Dallas business consultant and writer who grew up in western Kansas. A Vietnam-era veteran, avid bird hunter, and former NRA-accredited shotgun instructor, he is a member of Texas Gun Owners for Safety, a chapter of Giffords Gun Owners for Safety, and he volunteers with a prison entrepreneurship program.
Watch the video, here.
George (00:14):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we continue our series of podcasts now on faithful dissent. That is people who are consistently, uh, moving into the public sphere to try to challenge things that are harmful to human flourishing, and also to promote that which is good and, and, and healthy. And Scott Spreier is with us today. Scott and I, you should know, uh, have been part of the same church for many, many years. We were also neighbors for many years - Right. Right. Uh, in Dallas. And Scott, you have a, a number of areas that you are deeply involved in, uh, and as a retired person now, uh, you have even more time to invest in them. I wanna begin with, uh, your, uh, interest in gun safety and, uh, common sense gun laws and those sorts of things, uh, because I think, uh, this is an area that a lot of people feel hopeless and helpless about, right?
George (01:25):
Uh, and, uh, I, I think some people would like to say the Second Amendment simply says that, you know, we have unfettered access to guns, uh, and everyone can have them. And in Texas, everyone can open carry with a license and all those sorts of things. Other people would like to just do away with them altogether and struggle with the Second Amendment on that point. Uh, we could talk about, you know, the, the law, but you are yourself a gun owner.
Scott (01:55):
Yes, yes.
George (01:56):
And, uh, coming from Kansas, you have a long history of, uh, a hunting culture and those sorts of things. Right, right. So you kind of take a little bit of a different approach to this. What, uh, what would you say to people, uh, in, in, in terms of where we are with our gun culture?
Scott (02:12):
I think our gun culture today is a bit out of control. Uh, it's very different than when I grew up in Kansas in the 50s. I was raised by men - Who fought in World War II. Yes. My father, uh, the local barber, uh, my little league coach, my Sunday school teacher. Yes. They didn't talk about guns. Yes. Guns were present, but they were tools. Uh, I always saw guns as really fascinating tools. Most of my classmates in grade school got their first gun when they were eight. Mm. Uh, I felt, I felt I was denied something. <laugh> I didn't get my, a BB gun until I was 12. Okay. My father didn't own a gun and didn't hunt, uh, primarily because I found out he had to hunt to put food on the table. Ah. So it wasn't fun.
Scott (03:16):
Uh, but I, I was fascinated with guns. But when I became an adult, uh, I decided I was going to take up hunting. Bought a shotgun and started, started bird hunting, which is, I love to do, and, uh, have owned guns ever since. But I see the culture then is very different today. Today, it's, I think there are a number of factors. Uh,
Scott (03:44):
One is that it's a mental health issue. It's not a simple issue, it's a mental health issue. It's a social issue. It's an economic issue. Uh, all of those things. So it's very complex. Yes. I don't believe we have to get rid of our guns. Uh, but I think we need, uh, tougher, stronger regulations, uh, to stop the carnage that is happening.
George (04:15):
Okay. So what would be some of those common sense gun reform, um, laws that we could institute?
Scott (04:22):
Well, in Texas, it would be, uh, universal, uh, you know, registration or - Okay. Uh, s - uh, when you got a gun. Uh, so you couldn't just go to a gun show or buy a gun off the street. Uh, it would be, uh, what are called ERPOs, which are extreme risk protection programs. So if someone was, uh, uh, having, uh, mental health problems, uh, you could take the gun away. Uh, which I think is, uh, very important. Uh, s - uh, I think licensing for certain weapons - Age limits and cer- certain l - weapons. Uh, the president now is saying he's gonna remove the restrictions on 18 to 20 year olds are owning handguns. Hmm. Which would, my way of thinking be a disaster.
George (05:23):
Okay. So. So you've been involved with Gabby Gifford's organization - Right. I know. Which is, what's the name of the organization?
Scott (05:32):
Uh, uh, the part I'm with is Gifford's Gun Owners for Safety.
George (05:35):
Okay. And, uh, and, and there, there are a number of other organizations, u m, every- Every town.
Scott (05:43):
Every town. Mom's Demand Action.
George (05:45):
Exactly. Okay. And a- all of them, I assume, are communicating somehow and organizing for legislative purposes and things like that.
Scott (05:54):
I work side by side with, uh, Mom's Demand Action. Okay. Uh, because they have a voice that's very similar to Gabby's voice. Okay. And the more we can, I think, work together, uh, there, yeah, some, most of those people don't own guns, but at the same time, uh, having a gun owner and hearing that side of the story. So, uh, I go to the mom's meetings all the time because, and we table together and those sorts of things. Yeah.
George (06:33):
Great. So in Texas, we pretty much resist any limitation on guns and gun ownership, right? And yet, we've had some horrific, uh, mass shootings, schools and churches and whatnot, um, Walmart and these sorts of things. And every time we hear politicians come in and say they're gonna do something, and every time they seem to do nothing. Wh- what's the reason for that, Scott? Why is it that we know that these things are somewhat preventable, and when it comes to actually doing some of the things that would, uh, would, would stop it, we don't do it?
Scott (07:28):
That's, that's a great question. Um, I think there are several factors at play. Uh, surveys have shown that a majority of Texans would like these simple - Gun laws. Yeah. Yes, we want our guns, but we don't have to have the wide open, uh, situation we have today. Um, I think part of it is, um, Texas is several different states. Yeah. So you have the blue streak, purple streak down the middle - The red in other places. And I think there's a lot of still, uh, people in those areas - That are, are, are, uh, have representatives who are, are very hard on, on not regulating guns anymore than they have to. Right. Uh, I think, and this is me talking, I think it's a traditional, um, old white man issue. Hmm. There are a lot of our legislators, there are a lot of, uh, there are a lot of people like you and me -
Scott (08:46):
Who, um, and I have friends who the, uh, see owning guns as, uh, not only a right, but, uh -
George (09:00):
An identity marker.
Scott (09:01):
An identity marker, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Uh, when you go into lobby, uh, uh, at the Texas legislature and you walk into a, uh, state senator's office and they're on his oak credenza instead of a pictures of his family and, uh, awards he's won, there's a tricked out AR-15 with a bi g clip.
George (09:28):
Wow. Right.
Scott (09:32):
Why? You know, why? What is that saying? What is that saying? So I think there is, I think there is a cultural shift. I think, uh, and I think it's gonna take a long time to get over that cultural shift that guns are a part of Texas.
George (09:52):
Yeah. I, I don't understand certain things like AR - 15s, um, AK - 47s, these semi-automatic weapons, uh, the bump stocks that convert them to being automatic. I, suddenly this week, ironically, as we were getting ready for this conversation, somehow I started receiving emails from a company that, uh, sells silencers. And I don't know how I, of all people, how I got on that list. <laugh> But I can't think of some positive non-lethal, uh, reason to have silencers. Uh, maybe there is, but it, it just seems like there are certain things that could be done to minimize the carnage, you know. Uh, when, when we know that, you know, some of these weapons can be used for sport, okay? Right. For recreational purposes. Right. But when they are not, uh, cared for in those settings and protected alone in those settings, they become, uh, useful primarily for killing as many people as po ssible - Yes.
George (11:25):
With impunity.
Scott (11:26):
Yes. Yes.
George (11:26):
Yes. You know, so, uh, you know, cha - how do we change this culture? It seems to me one way is we've come to idolatrize guns as an identity marker for our sense of self, right?
Scott (11:47):
Yes. Yes.
George (11:48):
And we've got to, we've got to see that as a spiritually unfaithful identity marker, right?
Scott (11:56):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. This, we're a country of fear and, um, and anger. And, uh, I think part of that is we have to address that. Um, um, there are people I know who, who have, uh, a safe full of weapons, uh, including assault rifles and multiple handguns. Um, I don't own a handgun. Uh, I will share this with you. Uh, I'm a survivor of sorts. Hmm. And, uh, it wasn't until I got involved with this, uh, issue that someone said, "Well, you're a survivor." And I never thought of myself. But when I was in my 30s, young 30s, going through a horrible time living in Miami, I decided to end my life. And I went to a gun store on Tamiami Trail. Oh, yeah. You remember? Yeah. And to buy a gun. And the gun dealer said, uh, "What are you looking for?" And I said something like, "Well, you know, all those people we have coming into our country and the drug dealers." And I said, "Oh, yeah." And so he pulled out a stainless steel revolver and he said to me, "This is the gun you need because it will last you a lifetime." And somehow in my sixth sense of humor, when he said it would last a lifetime, I started laughing.
Scott (13:39):
It broke the spell. Interesting. And long story short, I got help, was hospitalized for a short time. Yeah. And never looked back. But it's so easy to access guns. Yes. And I think, uh, we've got a horrible rate of suicide, particularly among older white men - Yes. And our youngsters. And I think getting guns away from, from those people, uh, or keeping people safe from those things. So I think it's that. I think there, there is the fear factor of the other - That, that so many, so many people have today. And I think, I think we take the AR-15. Why can't we treat the AR-15 like the Ford F-150? You license it. Yeah. You register it. You have to have, you know, go through training, all of that stuff. Uh, there's no reason. There's no reason. Right.
Scott (14:52):
But I think it's a, such a complex act - Right. Thing because those things we've talked about. Right. A health issue, a mental health issue. Yes. Right. Uh, you go into our African American neighborhoods, and I was telling you the prisoners, the, the, the young men in prison that I work with, their stories of gun violence and gun access is very different than in our neighborhoods.
George (15:16):
Yes. Go on.
Scott (15:17):
Um, they, there's a very easy way to get guns - Given to you, that sort of thing. Uh, if you're in a ga- gang, you need one to protect yourself. Um,
Scott (15:32):
So it's just, and there is real, real fear. I, I table and give, uh, give away gun locks, and I give a lot of gun locks to mothers and wives - Who have been told by their uncle, their brother, whomever, that they need a gun for protection. They don't want a gun. But they've, they, they've been given one. So it's a, it's a, there's a huge fear factor. Right. And in some places, rightly so. I've never had that. I've never felt I needed a gun for protection. But I think if you look at our country today, uh, with everything that's going on - There's just a lot of, uh, of fe ar and -
George (16:23):
So maybe we ought to be addressing the fear, not the symptoms of the fear.
Scott (16:26):
Well, yes. You know?
George (16:28):
Yes. And, uh, and I think, you know, you, you spoke about identity and fear of other, which it, it seems to me that you're really afraid of someone else less because of who they are and more because of who you are. Uh, i- i- in other words, if I am secure in who I am, I have room for you as somebody different because everyone is not out to get me. Right. You know? Right. Uh, so how do we begin to create a culture in which, uh, maybe white men like us, you know, who have extraordinary privileges in our society, uh, don't see that, you know, when, when someone else gains access to privilege, that doesn't mean we have less. It means we have equal privilege and that that's okay.
Scott (17:27):
Totally agree. In fact, I kind of think it's time for my generation of old white men - To, uh, to, uh, step back a little. And, um, because again, I think so many of this is, is, we are the ones that are, are keeping this - Gun thing alive. Right. Uh, and again, I'm not trying to get rid of guns. Right. I just, it's the attitude towards them. It's the culture. And
George (18:10):
It's the culture. It's, it's the culture of it. You know, I, I saw, uh, this morning, uh, an interview with Malcolm Gladwell who has just written a book - New book. Uh, on -
Scott (18:20):
I'm reading it now. Okay.
George (18:21):
All right. So, uh, you could tell us more about it, uh, but it's, uh, essentially, I think, uh, rooted in his growing up in Canada and wondering when we are so much alike across the northern border, why is there such a, a, a, a, a culture of violence in the United States that is not present in Canada? And what are some of the conclusions that he has drawn from that and that you, uh, uh, are, are coming to?
Scott (18:50):
It only came out yesterday. Okay. So I've only read the first chapter.
George (18:53):
O kay. All right.
Scott (18:54):
Yeah. But there is a book, two things I'd encourage you to read. One is, I think it's, it's by, is it William Burrows, the Texas writer? Okay, yes. Uh, called Texas Gunfighters, The History of Texas Gunfighters. Um, and then go to the, uh, uh, uh, uh, website called The Aggressive, uh, Historian. Which is a woman who, uh, at, uh, uh, who's written, uh, she's T- Texas. She's written her, uh, PhD thesis on the gun in Texas. Okay. And it's the history. It's fascinating. But I think if you go back to Texas in the, shortly after the Civil War - Uh, you had, and this is what Burrows talks about, you had, uh, you had civil unrest because you had both Southerners and Northerners. You had the economics of recovering from the, from the Civil War. You had, uh, innovation. You had the creation of the, um, Colt revolver -
Scott (20:05):
Which in the past, all you could use was a dueling pistol. Yes. And, um, so, so those all came together - To create this huge amount of gun violence. Yes. You also had the media. Uh, today, if you look at our country, what do we have? We all have, there's all this discontent. You know, we have innovation, high-powered, cheap, high-powered weapons - Yes. That, and access to them. Um, and, uh, we also have the media. Yes. The internet. Yes. And I think all those, I think it's a situation in some ways - Uh, different, but very similar. Yes. And I think we have to address this issue - In a variety of ways.
George (21:00):
So one of those ways is, is we've been talking to change, uh, the sense of identity of people and to give them a, a sense of purpose that is not defensive, uh, that is not violent. Uh, you mentioned earlier that, uh, you, uh, work with people in prison and those who are coming out, uh, and, uh, y- you were talking about how you have conversations with these young men about purpose and that that has been something that has given you purpose as well. Right. Tell us more about this program and how you've been involved and how you might connect it to, you know, m- mini - changing some of the culture of, of violence.
Scott (21:49):
I think the, the, the, the, the most,
Scott (21:55):
Uh, I wouldn't say obvious, but the way that it's really hit it for me is when I work, this is a prison entrepreneurship program, and we work with young felons, mainly young Texas felons that are about to get out of prison. There's a sort of life series of elections of, of, of, uh, lessons and some business lessons. And after they graduate, we do a thing called the clubhouse - In which three volunteers will sit with 40 to 60 young men, mainly, and talk about issues. And the one, uh, it's, it's become more of a therapy session, group therapy session. And I've discovered getting to know these men as people and not the other - I have a very different, um, understanding and, uh, perception of who they are. And I find that they often grew up, uh, fatherless, broken homes in, in, in a rough area of, of their communities, uh, and they didn't have a chance.
Scott (23:10):
And so, uh, I think, I think one of the, what it's taught me is you really need to talk to people and understand people before you label them.
George (23:26):
Proximity is a real key, right? And so the fact that you are in relationship to these people changes your sense of who they are. Yes. Right? Yes. And when we keep othering people, you know, what we're doing is we're saying, "I know who you are without having to know you." Right. And human beings are just too complex to do that to. Uh, there's too much potential, too much mystery, too much, uh, surprise that, that human beings can, can give to us if we actually get to know them and, uh, find ourselves in relationship with them.
Scott (24:11):
Exactly. Exactly.
George (24:12):
So Scott, to, to wrap up, you know, you're one of those people who could wake up every morning, read the newspaper, tend to your yard, um -
Scott (24:24):
Play tennis.
George (24:25):
Play tennis, be with your friends, and call it a day because you've done your time, you've done your part - Right. You've raised your family, and yet you find yourself motivated to address gun violence, to help, uh, young offenders who are, uh, coming out, uh, to find purpose. Where does this come from?
Scott (24:50):
Uh, I think part of it comes from my faith. Uh, I grew up in a rural small town, uh, in a little church. And frankly, there were, uh, two types of church members, those who, uh, uh, believed in rules - And those who helped others. Mm. And, uh, the novel I wrote about Rancher John. Yeah. John and his wife were a couple who helped others. Right. And I learned a lot from those people who did that. My parents were the same way. Uh, so I think that was one of those things that, uh, at that point - Uh, but I think the other thing, and I think it's a good question, uh, you and I have had very good careers. Yes. Uh, for me anyhow, much of my life was about my career and my identity - And whether it was a journalist or consultant or whatever.
Scott (25:56):
Uh, I love my family and I, I think was a good father, but I didn't spend as much time a- as probably I should have - With my family. Mm. And I think at this point in my life, I think is the time to,
Scott (26:17):
To turn outward. Okay. I don't need any more man toys. Uh, you know, uh, it, it's the time to reach outward and, and do what we're taught to do - Was to look on the, the other. Yes. And to be real honest, and I wouldn't have said this as a younger man, I really enjoy doing it. I'm, I feel I'm getting something, I'm giving something, but I'm getting something back.
George (26:45):
Yeah, I think that's the thing that people don't fully, uh, understand. They think that they're sacrificing only, uh, by giving something up in order to do this. And what you find is, as you get involved, this changes you. It, it gives you joy. It does. It gives you a sense of meaning and purpose and why am I alive and, uh, whether God is using me and, uh, and, and finding, uh, relationships with people who you never thought you would. It's, it, it is extraordinary.
Scott (27:17):
It is. Yeah. It is. It's, it's, to me, it's fascinating. My other thing is I think it's time for old white men like me. I see the runway - Yeah. End of the runway. There's a lot I wanna do, but I think this is what I should be doing. Right. I shouldn't be just sitting, watching mindless TV or whatever.
George (27:41):
Yeah. It's called generativity, right? Right. Yeah. Right.
Scott (27:43):
Exactly. And I think there's a, I think there's a whole generation of white men our age who need to worry less about their legacy - Mm. And move on into doing the kind of stuff you're doing, so.
George (27:57):
Well, thank you so much for all you do, Scott. Oh, good. And thanks for being on Good God. Thank you for joining us for this episode. Find your place i - as a faithful dissenter, somehow, uh, putting to use what is passion for you in making the community a better place. Until next time, keep the faith.