Lillian Daniel pushes us to think when we think we have already arrived
Reverend Dr. Lillian Daniel, of First Congregational Church in Dubuque, Iowa, talks pronouns, biblical interpretation, and her preference of religion over spirituality.
Listen here, read the transcript below, or click here for the full video version.
George Mason:
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to the program today, the Reverend Dr. Lillian Daniel. Lillian, we're glad to have you with us.
Lillian Daniel:
Thanks. I'm so excited to be in Texas.
George Mason:
Yes. Well, because she's from Iowa nowadays, Lillian is the senior minister of the First Congregational Church in Dubuque, Iowa. And she has been in different places like the Chicago area, for instance, and in New England, in New Haven, Connecticut, but Dubuque, this is a whole new thing for you the last few years. What's the difference like being in New Haven, Glen Ellyn, in the suburb of Chicago, and now Dubuque, Iowa?
Lillian Daniel:
First, I love Iowa and I came there six years ago. And people when I got there they said, "Oh, why'd you come? Do you have family here?" And I said, "Well, I thought anybody could come." But it's beautiful. And contrary to what people expect, I don't live in flat cornfields. I'm in a very urban setting, it's a river city, and we have hills because it's called the driftless region where Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa meet, and the glaciers did not drift through so they didn't flatten the land. So we have San Francisco grade hills.
George Mason:
Wow.
Lillian Daniel:
And a lot of bluffs and rivers.
George Mason:
And I know you have a really diverse culture in Dubuque too and educational institutions, lots of colleges.
Lillian Daniel:
Lots of colleges. It's a very Catholic area.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Apparently, the reason that we have never gotten hit by a tornado, which hit everywhere else in Iowa, is because there's a statue of Bishop Masakali up on the top of the Bluffs.
George Mason:
Oh. So God noticed that.
Lillian Daniel:
Well, I definitely wanted to live under the statue for sure. So it's really interesting to be in such a Catholic environment in a Protestant Congregational church. Very urban with all the wonderful things and challenges of urban life. I love it there. But in five minutes I can be in my kayak on a beautiful river and not see a soul.
George Mason:
Fantastic. So you mentioned being a Protestant. So I mentioned too that you are the pastor of First Congregational Church and that's affiliated with the United Church of Christ. But the congregational tradition is just one of the traditions that makes up the United, right. Can you just help people understand some of this? What is the UCC, Lillian?
Lillian Daniel:
So we were Congregational before we were UCC. UCC is a set of initials from 1957 when we merged with others. But the church has been Congregational since 1839 when it was a log cabin and then moved to a big cathedral-like building downtown in 1859. And the Congregationalists were actually the pilgrims, later called by other people the Puritans and they came over on the Mayflower, settled in the east coast. Later started moving to the Midwest for a while. Ohio was Connecticut's Western Reserve. So there was that sort of east coast to the Midwest move. Our closest cousins are probably Presbyterians or we'd feel a lot like American Baptists. I say we're very similar to Presbyterians just better.
George Mason:
I can't wait for my Presbyterian friends to hear you say that.
Lillian Daniel:
Oh, they know.
George Mason:
Neither can you because you love to chide them. Actually, the original spirit of the Congregationalist moving over has really stayed in the UCC in certain ways. I remember ... I guess it was John Robinson who said, "In blessing the Pilgrims on their way that yet more light shall come from the word of God."
Lillian Daniel:
"There is yet more light and truth to come from God's holy word."
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Exactly. This idea that the book, the Bible, was not set in stone stagnant and that ... So the way we say it in today is we say, "God is still speaking."
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
That we believe God is still speaking not just through scripture but through our lives. We don't wear the Pilgrim outfits anymore, we left that behind. And we don't burn witches. That was an awkward moment in our history.
George Mason:
Awkward moment, right.
Lillian Daniel:
We're extremely against that now.
George Mason:
Okay, very good. In fact, you actually have women pastors and here you are.
Lillian Daniel:
We were technically the first denomination in the United States before we were the United States to ordain a woman, Antoinette Brown.
George Mason:
Wow.
Lillian Daniel:
And as soon as we ordained her she promptly ditched us and went to the Methodist.
George Mason:
Well, actually, we have as Baptists some of that tradition too because Roger Williams-
Lillian Daniel:
Yes.
George Mason:
Was a Baptist we like to say for about 15 minutes.
Lillian Daniel:
Yes.
George Mason:
He really founded Rhode Island as a Baptist and then became a seeker and other things.
Lillian Daniel:
We're the favorite churches of people who like moved on to greater things.
George Mason:
Exactly. So let's talk about your greater things because I think ... One of the things I love about you is that while you have experiences more widely from the local church, and we're going to talk about your books that you've written in a moment, you have also stayed rooted in the congregation. You have a sense that that's where the action is. And, of course, I've done the same thing all these years, and we have known each other in various ecumenical contexts through the years.
George Mason:
So I think it's interesting that while a lot of the trend in American religion has been about saying, "The church has disappointed us and institutional religion has been harmful to people, especially women, people of color, people of other sexual orientations, et cetera." You've said, "Actually, the church is a place where the action really is," and you've gone against that stream in a way. And you did so pretty powerfully in this book that you wrote called When "Spiritual but Not Religious" Is Not Enough. So what is it about congregational life that you would want to say is so vital to the maintaining of a faith and a faith tradition?
Lillian Daniel:
Absolutely. So I wrote that book ... I started writing on that subject because the pew studies were coming out that said, at that time, it was one in five people were checking off as their religious tradition none.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
And it wasn't N-U-N it was N-O-N-E.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And that number was growing to 1/3 if you were under 30. I think today it's 1/3 for everybody. So we all know this. And there's a lot of hand wringing about this, and denominational structures, and churches. I actually think I'm fine with it. I think it's healthy that people can be open about where they are. And Christianism is over. The days are over when because you were raised a Baptist you automatically stayed a Baptist and you married a Baptist. I mean, we have ... I'm sure we all have memories in our families of families that stopped speaking to each other because someone married not even outside the faith but a Protestant married a Catholic.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
And we're beyond that. So a lot of this is healthy.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
It's bad news institutionally because our market share isn't driven by family guilt or business connections.
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
But I've always been a pastor in that age of decline if you will.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And I feel like I'm privileged because I look out at a congregation of people who actually want to be there.
George Mason:
It's not just out of duty it's out of desire.
Lillian Daniel:
They're seeking God. I mean, they're curious. And I can't presume anything about their background. They probably did not pick the church based on denomination. It could be for all kinds of reasons.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
We could be the first religious community they stepped foot in.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
Or they could have had all kinds of experience. And everybody in the church, lay leaders, pastors, we've got to stop presuming we know who's sitting next to us.
George Mason:
Very good. So when you have someone sitting next to you saying the prayers, singing the hymns, going through the sort of rituals of religious life together, there is a sense of community that develops there. That in the spiritual but not religious world is ... Well, I think a lot of times they say that that's what they're looking for but it doesn't always develop. We have it built in our congregational life, don't we?
Lillian Daniel:
Yeah. So people define spiritual but not religious in different ways. So after I started writing on the topic I had some of my own church members come to me and say, "Well, Pastor Lillian, I call self spiritual but not religious." And I said, "Well, why?" Because my definition of it is that you are doing this sort of as a solitary activity.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
You are not doing it in religious community. The roots of the word religion are community.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
So that's my definition.
George Mason:
Sure.
Lillian Daniel:
People say things like "What about a 12 step group, is that not meaningful?" I say, "It's extremely meaningful. You have community, right. You're talking about God." But I'm talking more about the person who likes to perhaps read a book, listen to the TV, what have you, but chooses not to do this in the company of others and chooses not to participate in a tradition that is older and bigger than you are.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And to my mind, there's value in that. Because if I make up my own religion it's going to be as narcissistic and shallow as I am. I need to go to church because I need to say the prayer of confession-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And remember something bigger than myself.
George Mason:
Right. And really that's what scripture is in part as well as in some traditions, creeds, and whatnot. There is this sense that we're having a conversation with the church that just doesn't happen to be walking around with us at the moment. [crosstalk 00:10:35].
Lillian Daniel:
And we're engaging in this book. And, of course, it's a library, right, we're not engaging with one book.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
The Bible is an anthology, it's a collection book. And we're engaging with these difficult, weird texts but we're doing it as people have done for thousands and thousands of years.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And there's wisdom in there. There's also a lot of broken humanity and nonsense in there, in our tradition. And I think we can talk about that. In my tradition, the pastor is expected to be a teacher, a scholar. You shouldn't be afraid of biblical scholarship, of setting the context, the times, talking about it. Obviously, the Bible is not a family values handbook.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And to deal with those stories and to acknowledge some of these horrible stories, they're in there for a reason. And the reason is that people can be horrible and they didn't want to just tidy that away.
George Mason:
It is a fascinating thing. I think most people who haven't really read the Bible with intention think that it's just sort of an idealized, sanitized view of what people are supposed to be like.
Lillian Daniel:
Oh my gosh, yeah.
George Mason:
There's not one functional family described in the Bible.
Lillian Daniel:
No. I mean, even our heroes ... I just got done with an eight-week sermon series on King David. And by week seven I was like can we get to the part where he does anything laudable.
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
And we think of him as a great leader, but I also think that's the point.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
That he gets to have redemption, he gets to make mistakes. But this is not 10 steps to a happy marriage.
George Mason:
No, no. And the David story is fascinating to me too in that it's not before but after the episode with Bathsheba and Uriah, her husband, where he actually has her husband killed so he can be with her.
Lillian Daniel:
For no good reason.
George Mason:
Right. And then later David is said to be a man after God's own heart, not before.
Lillian Daniel:
Well, I don't know. God seems to be pretty partial to him when he was a kid and fighting Goliath and all that.
George Mason:
Not to say where the words come in is still later in the story which I find so encouraging, right.
Lillian Daniel:
Well, and if you believe that David is responsible for authoring say at least a big chunk of the Psalms-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
That probably happens in the second half of his life after the age of 50-
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
Where he's suffered, where he's ascended to power, where he's lost children. He's really paid for mistakes in a deep way.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And that's where I think he becomes a gifted author whose words we recite to this day.
George Mason:
So you mentioned earlier that we look to the Bible about family.
Lillian Daniel:
Well, I don't.
George Mason:
Well, we tend to. But the Bible doesn't speak as clearly as some would say about sexuality, about role relationships, about gender identity, things like that. And we were talking before the podcast about the challenges that we face as pastors now where we have to work on our language a little bit in ways that we didn't before because we're becoming more aware that ... For example, some people do not consider themselves male or female, they talk about themselves as being non-binary, and then they actually might want to use different pronouns and we have to sort of listen to them about that. Reflect on that with me as a pastor would you?
Lillian Daniel:
Sure. As a pastor and also because I've always been a writer and I've tended to write books that clergy and sort of lay leaders read in different denominations. I get dropped into the world of the Methodists who are struggling so much as a denomination right now on issues of human sexuality will probably split and part ... In two because of that. In my own denomination, we resolved that earlier on. We went with marriage equality back in 2004 before states were even doing that. And the denomination lost members at that time, but in a sense, it was clarifying.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
And I watch other traditions struggling with it now. But really ultimately the denominations can do what they're going to do. It's how you treat people when they show up in God's house that you are allowed to rent on this earth, right?
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
And in my experience with the queer community ... And that's a term that is increasingly used just to sort of include everybody.
George Mason:
Right. Older people think it's a polemical term and younger people are saying, "No, we'll actually take that. Let's use that terminology"
Lillian Daniel:
Which raises a great question. Who's right? And I would say the person whose right is the person in the group who tells you "This is what I would like you to call me."
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
The person who’s right about their name is the person who has the name. Where does it sort of occur to us in our arrogance to say, "Well, I'm going to tell you what I think you should be called-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Because that's how we thought of it then?" There's just a basic respect in listening. And I think with the pronouns, with non-binary folks, people will say, "Gosh, I don't know what to call you." And they'll say, "Well, just say they instead of saying he or she. Say they." People say, "Oh, I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't it's a grammatical thing," which cracks me up because-
George Mason:
Actually, grammatically there's a history of using they in the singular, which even Jane Austin did.
Lillian Daniel:
Exactly.
George Mason:
Which is curious.
Lillian Daniel:
Exactly. If I say, "Oh, who's going to be filming us today for the podcast? Tell them that." We do it all the time. And actually, there's a lot in the Bible about people whose names change and who go through some transformation.
George Mason:
Transformation.
Lillian Daniel:
Transformation.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And you look at Saul becomes Paul.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And we read Paul's letter in church and nobody stands up and says, "I'm just so sorry but I'll always think of you as Saul and I just can't get my head around it. I'm just sorry." And it's no, we do that. Or, when people get married, if they choose to change their name people don't have fits over that.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And if they make a mistake and they accidentally call you by your name before you just say, "Oh, I'm sorry," and you move on.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And that's the big thing I've learned with non-binary folks is ... Or if you accidentally misgender someone, don't stop and defend yourself, or have a debate about grammar, or make it all about you, just say, "Oops, I apologize. I meant to say they."
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And you keep going.
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
And you just keep going. And that was the other thing I learned too along the way was that it's really important when somebody transitions or tells you, "This is my pronoun or this is my name now," if you care about that person, right, obviously if you don't care about them just be a jerk, but if you care about them it's really important to practice using their name and pronouns when they're not in the room.
George Mason:
Interesting.
Lillian Daniel:
So when you're talking to other family members ... Because people will say, "Oh, I always call them what they want to be called when I'm with them-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
But just between us, obviously, I still think of so and so." Her as Mary or whatever. Well, it's like when I was a seminarian and I was working with the youth group, and I would say, "I'm not going to cuss or swear when I'm around the youth of the church, I'm only going to do that with my friends." And then you run a stop sign and the kids are in the car and the first thing out of your mouth is the F word.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
You have to practice.
George Mason:
You do.
Lillian Daniel:
You have to practice if you care about the person. If you don't, don't practice.
George Mason:
Well, you've had a lot of practice in this not only pastorally but personally. Because I know that you have an adult child who identifies as they with the pronoun they. And Ab is non-binary and so you've had to learn this in your own private practice as well as a pastor.
Lillian Daniel:
I did, yes. And I had always been comfortable in my ministry with the queer community, with trans folks. I will say the non-binary piece, that was something new for me.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And Ab came out what five years ago. Is that there's always going to be something new.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Just when we think we should get the award for how hip we are and welcoming, there's going to be something new.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And it's always humbling. But I do think when you look at Jesus, he treats people with respect. He engages them where they are. He doesn't give them lectures on whether or not they should call themself a Pharisee or rich man or what. He is constantly just sort of slipping in and eating with them.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And listening. And I think that's what we're called to do.
George Mason:
Well, even on this non-binary notion, a lot of times people in the church would like to say, "Well, the Bible just has categories of male or female." But actually, the Bible is a little more ambiguous about that in the sense that in the creation accounts and then even Paul later in Galatians uses the language of male and female having been created. He'll talk about Jews or Gentiles, it's one or the other.
Lillian Daniel:
But male and female.
George Mason:
But male and female.
Lillian Daniel:
That's so interesting.
George Mason:
I've thought about that, and in reading and thinking about it in our own church. When people want to enforce this binary and say, "This is Christian tradition, this is biblical religion, and this is where everybody needs to fit," it also says that God created day and night, but we don't actually at dawn or dusk say, "Which one is it day or night?"
Lillian Daniel:
I see. It's not like a light switch, it's not binary.
George Mason:
Exactly.
Lillian Daniel:
Got you.
George Mason:
It's more like a dimmer switch, right.
Lillian Daniel:
I like that.
George Mason:
So there's a willingness to recognize the continuums of other aspects of creation, but when we get to gender there's a tendency to want to nail it down.
Lillian Daniel:
Well, yes. And I mean, first, heaven help us if we go to a text from thousands of years ago for ideas on how to organize gender today.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
I mean, in the same way that we don't go to that text for ideas on slavery. They took slavery as a given, right, we, obviously, don't. So again, it's the Jesus test. What would Jesus do?
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
But I think the creation story is so interesting because you have the two creation origin stories both next to each other in Genesis. One is Adam, and then from Adam's rib we get Eve. And the other is God created them male and female. Them like humanity.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
My goodness. Human sexuality, gender, everything, I think it's right now we see through a mirror darkly.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
In heaven, we'll see face to face. Who knows what will be revealed.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Who knows. But I think the idea of allowing people to be transformed.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
The transgender world I think right now is teaching us that we're all in transition. We are all in transition.
George Mason:
Okay.
Lillian Daniel:
And sometimes folks on that journey may change their name or their pronouns more than once. They may say at different times on this or that. And rather than say, "Well, how can I possibly keep up? Oh, that's the hardest job in the world." But I also have a young man at my church who grew up in the church and everyone called him Andy, and now he's a grownup and he wants to be called Andrew. That's his grownup name. And we have the capacity to love people-
George Mason:
Sure.
Lillian Daniel:
And respect them in that.
George Mason:
So all of that leads me to want to pull up your most recent book.
Lillian Daniel:
Okay.
George Mason:
Which is titled Tired of Apologizing for a Church I Don't Belong To: Spirituality without Stereotypes, Religion without Ranting. So this book is sort of a follow up in a way to the book about-
Lillian Daniel:
Spiritual but Not Religious, yes.
George Mason:
Spiritual but Not Religious. And I think it goes to this conversation in a way because what we're talking about is how I think you and I both agree. The church can be the community that practices in private in a way what we want to be true publicly for others instead of always being the organization, religious organization, that reacts to what's going on publicly. That in a sense this can be this sort of really fertile ground for learning this new humanity that God is calling us to. And in a way, we as ministers get pigeonholed. Here we are we're pastors of Christian churches and boy I've got issues with the church.
Lillian Daniel:
Oh, I mean, just think of the portrayal of pastors or church members in the movies, in the media.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
It's generally this judgemental, angry flock who do whatever the charismatic bullying pastor tells them to. Well, first, I would love to have a church that did that. I can't pull it off. No one does what I ask them to at my church and they never have. But no, I think where's the portrayal of the church people I know who are diverse, and questioning, and debating, and challenging each other and challenging me, and doing the real work, and who don't think that they're perfect. I mean, we say the prayer of confession every week because we need it.
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
We're not saying it for everybody else out there.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And so that's the picture of church that I think we need to talk about more. But I think what happens is when you're a part of a church that perhaps has a high value on inclusivity or tolerance or interfaith dialogue et cetera, et cetera, we have sort of slipped into the don't ask don't tell mode when it comes to our faith. We're terrified to out ourselves as Christians because we don't want people to think we're those Christians.
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
As a pastor, you're on the airplane and someone says, "What do you do for a living?" And you're going to say, "I'm roofer," because you don't want to be associated with the nut job pastor who's saying that the hurricane hit this country because they did something wrong. I mean, we're all embarrassed by segments of the church family, but I think to just go underground or hide it's not the answer.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
So that was what I meant. Stop apologizing for these churches that are sort of stereotypes or other people's churches, and instead just talk honestly. Not so much boosting the institution but what do you get by participating in a religious community? Why does it make your life richer? What difference does it make?
George Mason:
I think it's something I've loved about watching you over the years. And I don't know whether it's your theological orientation, your personality, or what it is exactly, but almost whenever the church is going in one direction and just going all-in on this, you sort of say, "Stop, wait a minute. Let's look at the other side of this." And I've seen you do this numerous times. So with the spiritual but not religious bunch, for instance, so let's talk about religion. There was a movement of people who felt like maybe they were graduating out of the ministry into other pursuits and leaving the local church, and you're like "Wait, wait, wait."
Lillian Daniel:
And wanted a medal for it.
George Mason:
Exactly. And wanted everybody to praise them and they did. And you were like, "Wait a minute, the action is in the local church and this is where it's hard but it's good."
Lillian Daniel:
It's where the rubber meets the road. If we could all do this in solitary confinement yes, we could all get it right. But you let human beings in the building and we're going to screw it up.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
We're going to do what we do. But that's where we actually have to wrestle with loving your neighbor. It's easy to love your neighbor when you don't ever see your neighbor or you don't have to pass bylaws with your neighbor or be on a committee with your neighbor. Oh, God.
George Mason:
Yes, yes. Well, and so in this book, you're actually in some ways taking on your own tendency to want to hide or the-
Lillian Daniel:
Or apologize.
George Mason:
Or apologize.
Lillian Daniel:
Let me beat you to it. The witch trials, the inquisitions.
George Mason:
Exactly. Okay, we're all about that. But you also have a way of taking on even your more liberal progressive tradition and saying, "Right now it's all about Brene Brown and vulnerability and all," but some of that goes a long way and it's important. What else would you like to say, Lilian?
Lillian Daniel:
So it's not all about me. I mean, I really appreciate that for many people their lives have been changed by Brene Brown's important work on shame, and overcoming shame, and how it can really be toxic, but I also think there's just ... Everyone's rushing to be vulnerable now. It's the vulnerability peddlers.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And I've gone to talks wherein the Christian world or where have you, people will say, "Okay, I'm going to now tell you something I've never told anybody before." And I'm sitting there going, it was in your last book. But there's this way in which you say "I'm going to be vulnerable or you're praised for it." And some vulnerability is deep and meaningful and some of it is just narcissism and another way to talk about ourselves all the time. There's a role for humility in this-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
That I think comes from Christian practice that would help us discern when we've overshared, when we've undershared. What we're doing for a greater purpose and what we're doing just to unload? So there's a way in which a lot of progressive and open-minded Christians are too modest about church and that's what I was getting at. That before you apologize for the other churches, or before you try to invite people to your church by telling them what it's not-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
Go to the God thing. I had a great experience. I learned so much by going to other parts of the Christian family. So I had an awesome time where I went to Denmark, to Copenhagen, and they have a National Protestant Church in Denmark, and I was supposed to talk about preaching and evangelism. And when you have a nationally-funded church, that's just an entirely different dynamic. And so people pay taxes but nobody really goes.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And they're sort of obligated to do certain things. And so we talk about church growth and decline here. Europe is total ... And Denmark further down, right. So they were wonderful. And here I am, I'm lecturing in English, they are all following it in English, but at the break I said, "So here I am in Copenhagen, it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world, what should I do?" And they said, "Well, it's a very nice city but it's no nicer than other cities. You have many nice cities in America."
George Mason:
Oh.
Lillian Daniel:
And I said, "Oh no." But I said, "It's so pretty. Are there any special places to eat? Anything I should see?" "Well, I'm sure you have many things to see where you're from."
George Mason:
Interesting.
Lillian Daniel:
I was like "What about a museum?" Should I go" ... "Well, we have a museum but there are many good museums in other places." And I was like could you just say something good here?
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And so I was like please just ... You're not being braggy just tell me something special to do. And the guy goes, "Oh, oh." He goes, "There's is a festival, there is a festival. You go down to the square they have a band, they have music. It's a very, very wonderful festival. Yes, we have a festival but it is finished."
George Mason:
Oh, my.
Lillian Daniel:
Meaning it had already occurred, right.
George Mason:
Right, right.
Lillian Daniel:
And so I thought this was so hilarious and I'm telling my friends about it later.
George Mason:
But what a good parable.
Lillian Daniel:
And then I realize oh my gosh, that's how people in our churches-
George Mason:
Yes.
Lillian Daniel:
People will say, "Tell me about your church," and we say, "Well, it's no better than any other religion."
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
But really what's good about it? And basically, well, we had a festival but it is finished.
George Mason:
Oh, wow. Well, Lillian, I can only say that you always make us think when we think we already have arrived and you make us stop and look at it differently. And that's I think one of your spiritual gifts so thank you for doing that. And thank you for joining us on Good God and for encouraging us about church.
Lillian Daniel:
Oh, thanks to you for getting all these different people in conversation with each other. Especially, I mean, how important that's been when we couldn't sit down together in person.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And what a blessing that was.
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
And I think we have all kinds of people out there have had the opportunity to dip their toe into different traditions they never would have-
George Mason:
Right.
Lillian Daniel:
If it hadn't been for lying on the couch for a year.
George Mason:
Well, let's all hope, in our position at least, that some of them get off the couch and come back and join us in congregational life in person.
Lillian Daniel:
Because the festival's still going.
George Mason:
The festival's still going. Exactly. Thanks for being on Good God, Lillian.
Lillian Daniel:
Thank you.
Speaker 3:
Good God is created by Dr. George Mason. Produced and directed by Jim White. Social media coordination by Cameron Vickrey. Good God conversations with George Mason is the podcast devoted to bringing you ideas about God, and faith, and the common good. All material copyright 2021 by Faith Commons.