Faith Over Fear: Rev. Eric Folkerth on Prayer, Immigration, and Moral Courage

As fear and tension rise around immigration enforcement in North Texas, Rev. Eric Folkerth has helped lead an interfaith clergy vigil outside the Dallas ICE field office—an act of prayerful presence in the face of injustice.

In this episode of Good God, George Mason talks with Rev. Folkerth about what happens at these weekly gatherings, how they began, and why he believes prayer can be both faithful and prophetic. Together they discuss the growing anxiety among immigrants, the tragic shooting that drew national attention to the Dallas ICE facility, and the moral toll of policies that harm both migrants and public servants.

Grounded in scripture and compassion, their conversation calls people of faith to resist fear, welcome the stranger, and embody moral courage in public life.

Rev. Eric Folkerth is senior pastor of Kessler Park United Methodist Church in Dallas. A longtime minister, musician, and activist, he’s known for his work at the intersection of faith and justice.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:13):

<silence> Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm delighted to welcome to the program my colleague and friend, the Reverend Eric Kerth. Eric, welcome.

Eric (00:27):

Thank you so much. Glad, glad to be here.

George (00:29):

Eric is the senior minister of the Kessler Park United Methodist Church. . Now, but he's been a pastor in the Dallas area for more than 30 years. Yeah, And, uh, for a long time at, uh, north Haven, United Methodist Church. . . So we've known each other. . Uh, both, uh, in terms of being pastors and working in churches, and also sort of being on the front lines of, uh, uh, addressing matters of community importance, uh, social justice issues and the like. And we find ourselves now, Eric, in a whirlwind of activity around immigration policy. And specifically about the, um, work of ice. Uh, the Immigration and Customs, um, enforcement Agency, um, the Homeland Security people, and, uh, what we're seeing in terms of these detaining of I immigrants and deporting them and what's been taking place there. So we should maybe start by saying that, uh, you had the idea . And have been leading an effort . Of our, uh, clergy . Uh, and faith interested faith laypersons as well to hold a weekly prayer vigil at the ice field office. And so tell us about how that got into you and how, uh, you know, and why you think this is important for us to do this.

Eric (02:05):

Well, you, George and I are both involved in this group, uh, that we have, we're now calling Clear Clergy League for Emergency Action and Response. Yes. And several of us, faith Commons has been a big part of getting that going. . And I think there's some 40 of us that are active from all over Dallas and the Dallas-Fort Worth region. I think it'd be fair to say, but, um, as, as this administrator at Kessler, it really did kind of start from Kessler Park. Uh, in the fall after the election, we asked ourselves, we have a social justice team, and we asked ourselves, what's gonna be, there's probably gonna be a lot of things come up, but what's gonna be first and what's gonna be perhaps most urgent . And so our team kind of decided with my conversation with them that immigration would be, be our first issue that we would try to address. So, uh, I had been thinking on it for some time, and then when Clear came into being, it seemed like having a clergy presence there would be a good idea. <laugh>. And I, I just find, I think you would agree with this, that we have, for better or worse, we have the ability to enter into a situation and, uh, be a calming president, president's, perhaps . When there is anxiety, not always, but a lot of times . And so it just seemed like, it seemed like that was a good idea.

George (03:41):

So we've been there since May.

Eric (03:44):

Yeah. 1st of May.

George (03:45):

Yeah. And, uh, so it's been, uh, what's that five months now? Yeah. Uh, and describe to people what happens out there. Absolutely. What do we do? Yeah. And, uh, who's there and where are we and those sorts of things.

Eric (03:59):

Yep. So we try to make sure we have some of our clergy there every week from various denominations, various faiths, Jewish, Hindu,

George (04:08):

Muslim, Muslim.

Eric (04:09):

. Christian of variety of types . And, uh, we've been joined by a lot of lay folks. We gather it first to, uh, make sure everybody has, if they're first timers, they understand what we're doing, kind of set the tone. And we, we offer a prayer at the beginning. And then we do spread out with some signs that often are about the issue of immigration, sometimes with some Bible verses . Uh, we have some signs that are in Spanish that are directed toward the migrants themselves. Yes. So, this field office has been in a lot in the news quite a bit, uh, for anybody who's been watching this, this particular field office, because this is where a shooting took place, uh, just a, a week ago. But, uh, prior to it becoming infamous for that, it was the, it, it is the administrative offices for ICE for all of North Texas, Dallas, the Dallas Fort Worth region right there.

Eric (05:06):

And so all of their administrative staff are there, all their attorney's office there. It's our understanding, and it's a place where migrants themselves, who are in the system go and they are required to do regular check-ins. Yes. And for many years, this was not a big deal. This was not a nor, uh, abnormal process or weird or scary or anything. They would show up, uh, with their documents. And, uh, I, I hesitate to say it's like going to see a probation officer 'cause it's not like that, but it is a check in with an official that way. And they take their documents and they try to, uh, understand what's going on. Well, uh, almost immediately in the Trump administration, this became a, a moment of great anxiety for people. People were very afraid and unsure of what to do. And we now know, of course, that people are being detained in those check-ins. People go in the building for their check-in, and they don't come out.

George (06:07):

And not everyone, uh, some do

Eric (06:09):

Come out. No, no, no. And the majority still come out for sure. And we don't know

George (06:12):

Why some don't come out. That's right. And others, uh, you know, are, are, are let, uh, free, but, uh, nonetheless, we, so they, they detained them there. And what we found out was initially, uh, they were actually being detained in very unsatisfactory conditions. They were not prepared. For the number of people. They were detaining a hundred

Eric (06:38):

Percent.

George (06:39):

And they, uh, they were supposed to move them off to another facility. That's right. Uh, but, uh, they were there for several days and

Eric (06:48):

Days into weeks. Yes.

George (06:50):

And, uh, more than in, in fact, uh, with, without heating or air conditioning in rooms. Yeah. With, without adequate food. Correct. Without adequate sanitation. Uh, it, it, there were no beds. And it, these were very inhumane conditions. Yeah. Which led us to, uh, it, it to, to, uh, contacting our, uh, our congressional representatives,

Eric (07:16):

Folks from the area

George (07:16):

Yeah. Three of them. Yeah. Wrote a letter to Homeland Security, and they did. Uh, and, and we, we know that that had some effect, even though they didn't answer, they did not. They changed policies.

Eric (07:26):

Yeah. So, uh, they did, ICE did issue a statement around that time saying, yes, there is a holding facility there. And yes, our policy is to hold people, I think they said 12 hours. So by their own policy, they're supposed to process people there in a little holding cell and then move them somewhere that is more humane. Hopefully.

George (07:51):

In fact, the shooting took place when some people were being moved, moved

Eric (07:55):

Out of the holding source.

George (07:56):

Out of the holding into, into vans. That's right. And that's when they were hit. And that, you know, we now know that the, uh, shooter intended to target ice agents. That's right. But in fact, two of those who were detained, uh, were killed in the process. Yeah. And one, uh, terribly injured. So

Eric (08:14):

Let me, let me just say that it really, it was at our vigils, at our, uh, George and I, our group clear clears vigil that the world first found this out because, uh, one of the affected persons, one of the wives of . Of a gentleman who was being, uh, detained there. He had been there four days at the time we met her. Uh, she just came up to us in tears On that morning that we were there. Yes. And started telling us her story. And it was absolutely eyeopening to us. Now, you know, there are lots of atrocities going on right now . Um, lots of very concerning stories of how ice is behaving. We can talk about that in a minute. . But that was very shocking to us, because up to that moment, we had no idea anything was You know, the, the, we didn't realize they weren't even following their own process.

George (09:06):

You know, I think it's important probably for people to understand the distinction between a prayer vigil Yeah. And a protest. Absolutely. Uh, and the truth is, there is some element of protest just by being there because of what we think is inhumane treatment of our neighbors. Exactly. And the fact that we think our government should not be functioning in this way. So, uh, the, the mere fact of our presence and the call to love our neighbors and to treat people with dignity and to follow the law.

Eric (09:42):

Please,

George (09:43):

Uh, is is part of why we are there as a kind of, we reminder to our community and to our government. Which is our government. That's Not somebody else's government. No. Our government to function according, uh, to the highest, uh, standards of, of dignity, and, uh, and according to the law. So we we're praying Yeah. Uh, while we're there, uh, and, and, and, and we don't have any illusions of this transforming policy because we have this great, you know, no, a hoard of people. Or, or, or, and we don't have a great strategy that we're gonna export this all over the country. No. This sort of thing. But there's a kind of sense that people feel hopeless. Yeah. People feel powerless. For sure. And what we find is the people who are coming and joining us, and by the way, you are welcome to come and join us. Anyone

Eric (10:39):

Of goodwill.

George (10:39):

Anyone of goodwill precisely who agrees with what we're doing. This is not a place for debate. No. This is, this is a place for prayer and for advocacy, uh, uh, uh, for, uh, for immigrants. Uh, but if you come, what you, what you're there to do is to feel that you have some voice That's right. Some agency and some way to be a faithful presence in, in this, in this time. That's

Eric (11:07):

Absolutely right. Um, vigil, we, our group, uh, had some real conversation about this. And this is where I think being a clergy person makes a difference. We understood all of our group implicitly, that we are doing this from our faith. This action is not coming because we are blessing a partic particular political view or social view or anything. We are there. I am personally there because of my faith, because my faith compels me, and my faith compels me to pray for and demand the just treatment for the vulnerable. And right now in our society, migrants are among the most vulnerable. I mean, that's kind of how you get to that place, and that's how you combine both the prayer and the demand for justice. But how

George (11:57):

Do you talk to people? Yeah. Eric, I mean, this is part of our challenge, right? Yeah. What you just said is that when you read the Bible Yeah. When you follow the Wesleyan way, Uh, as a Methodist. Yeah. When you live the life of being a pastor and a minister, a follower of Jesus, this is not complicated. No.

Eric (12:22):

It's

George (12:23):

Not. Welcome. The stranger care for the foreigner. Uh, treat them as if they belong to your own tribe.

Eric (12:29):

It's clearly what the Bible

George (12:30):

Says over and over again. And yet many of our, uh, siblings in Christ who call themselves followers of Jesus, do not see that and support this, this policy. What do you make of that?

Eric (12:51):

I think it's important for people listening to understand that, for you and I, this puts us in a bind where we are talking to many different communities at the same time about our faith view. I feel like we are, we are talking to other Christians Yes. And saying, you're getting this wrong. Look at these, look at your Bible again. Listen to Jesus again. Understand what Jesus says. That's one conversation. There's a whole other conversation with many people beyond the church, and in fact, the migrant community themselves who are pretty distrustful of, uh, institutions and church . And so, um, what I say to them is, uh, just what I just said. Yeah. I mean, is I, I, I really do try to lead with that. I try to lead with the fact that when people are standing up for social justice or social change, what, however you wanna define that, people come at that from various starting points.

Eric (13:47):

There are people who have a particular cause, the environment or racial justice or women's rights or whatever. And often you're pulled into it from that. . For me, it was a different path. That path came from my faith. Yes. That's the point I've tried to make for 30 years. And I still think it gets lost in here somewhere. Right, It is from my reading of the Bible as some of the scriptures you just cited. And we, I'd love to talk about a couple others. Uh, it is from that, that I feel that call. I feel this is genuinely the call of Jesus. In fact, it is central to the whole gospel story in my view.

George (14:27):

And, and I think we should also say that we are there as an interfaith Absolutely. Group of clergy. And we have, we have Jews holding up signs, uh, you know, that, that talk about the Hebrew scriptures. And about, uh, you know, uh, resisting tyranny since the pharaohs Absolutely. You know, absolutely. All these sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. We have Muslims doing the same. Absolutely. Uh, from their tradition, this, this idea of welcoming the stranger and of treating people, uh, as people made in the image of God and as, as fellow human beings. Uh, it, this is not complicated. It's not No, it's not unique to Christians. It's not, uh, but what we find ourselves dealing with is people who are, I think, starting with the idea that they are Americans.

Eric (15:18):

Correct.

George (15:19):

Starting with the idea that their primary loyalty is to the nation

Eric (15:23):

Is national.

George (15:24):

It's national, and the nation has the right to establish its own rules and hundred percent its own laws. And people who have broken those laws are sitting in effect and should be punished. That's right. And, uh, so automatically whether

Eric (15:41):

They've actually broken the laws or not. Well, e

George (15:43):

Exactly.

Eric (15:43):

We should quickly add <laugh>.

George (15:44):

And, and let's, let's also stipulate that many of the people that are being deported right now have come and yes, they've crossed the border, but it was entirely legal for them. A hundred

Eric (15:58):

Percent

George (15:59):

To cross the border, to ask for asylum. That's

Eric (16:03):

Right.

George (16:03):

And then enter the system. That

Eric (16:05):

Is the way the system is set up. Correct.

George (16:07):

To see whether asylum is warranted. Exactly. If it isn't after due process, then they would be deported. That's exactly Perfectly fa, perfectly fair. Exactly right. But the, the current administration has essentially eviscerated the asylum rules. A hundred percent. Everyone has come. Who has come, has therefore come violating Yes. The border.

Eric (16:30):

So, to, to put a fine point on that, George, what you're describing here is a change in the rules. Yes. That has recently happened. Rules that stretch back decades. Yes. Not simply, uh, not just a Democratic or Republican president. But all United States presidents Yes. All administrations . All ice administrations all functioned under the same Yes. Rules. We have recently changed those rules . And so what it meant was it was a process where, um,

George (17:03):

And we haven't, we, when you say we have changed those rules,

Eric (17:06):

We, the country we have owning that this is our government doing it on our behalf.

George (17:10):

Yes. But there has not been, actually no, there was not a vote, a change of immigration law.

Eric (17:16):

No. There was not a vote to change the law. That's

George (17:18):

Exactly right. The

Eric (17:19):

Congress has not changed the law. There has not been immigration reform. That's right. Let's say That's right. Um, and I, I do think, uh, anyway, we can talk a lot about how we got to this point, but that is in fact what is happening now. . And a point that we pastors have been trying to say to the public, if people are saying, well, you're aiding and abetting those who are breaking the law, my answer is no. We're not. We're in fact help, trying to support those who are trying to follow the rules. Yes. Let me give you an example of this, that we saw this last Monday, this week. Um, we, uh, the office was supposed to be closed. Yes. The ice office, because of the shooting. So, as you know, we, we canceled our regular vigil. We made an agreement that a few of us would show up anyway, just to kind of catch anybody that didn't get the word.

Eric (18:09):

And we thought there might be a few migrants that would also be there accidentally. Uh, I'm glad we went because as it turns out, on Monday, there were hundreds of migrants who showed up. Now the, the parking lot is closed. The building is closed again, I understand this. It's still a crime scene. There's a lot going on there. They probably even have, I don't even know if they fixed the windows. It's horrible. No one is denying that horror, but the parking lot was closed up. And these folks who were told Come Monday we'll be open. They were told, come Monday, we'll be open Monday. They all showed up. And so here we are in our clergy shirt showing up. We are the only people talking to them. And we said, oh, I'm sorry. We, the office is closed. And we showed them a news story, which again, it's fascinating to watch somebody kind of register that it took a minute for them. 'cause they were told to be here. In their mind, they said, the government told me to be here, and I wanna follow the rules. This is where I'm going. So my point is, that is an illustration. If people wanna understand, these are people who are really desperately trying to follow the rules that our country has set out for them. And at every turn right now, we are making it more difficult. And not only are we making it difficult, but parts of our government are acting with genuine cruelty.

George (19:33):

Yes. And what we are finding is that people who are coming for their check-ins are genuinely afraid.

Eric (19:41):

Genuinely afraid.

George (19:42):

There is a widespread fear and anxiety. What we know is happening in this country is people are not showing up for work. Kids are not showing up for school. They're living in the shadows. They're not showing up for church.

Eric (19:43):

George (19:58):

Uh, because they, even churches become open season. That's For ice agents.

Eric (20:05):

And to understand that some of these people you're talking about George, are green card holders or citizens. Yes. The you're not, you're still not only talking about migrants. You're talking about a general fear that is in the public, because we now have documented proof that ICE has rounded up citizens, ICE has rounded up people who are United States citizens who scream out at the time of their detention. I am a citizen. And apparently that doesn't

George (20:34):

Matter. Supreme Court has ruled that, that government agents are permitted to profile people.

Eric (20:42):

That's, that's correct.

George (20:43):

And in doing

Eric (20:43):

So, I wish that was not correct. That

George (20:45):

It is the, the assumption is according to Justice Kavanaugh, that they can just then verify whether they have made the right decision or the wrong decision and released them right away. And that's not what

Eric (20:57):

Happens. That's not happening. No.

George (20:58):

And

Eric (20:58):

So it's a, it's a fantasy to imagine if, if anybody believes that's what's happening, that's not what's happening.

George (21:05):

So when we were there, yeah. We're also praying for ice agents.

Eric (21:08):

Absolutely. I I want to be sure we say this . From the very beginning, from the very first time we were there, and every time we've been there, we have prayed for ice. Yes. And we prayed for two things. We have prayed for the safety of public servants. Yep. And we have prayed that ice act with justice on our behalf. Yes. Justice and compassion. We prayed for both of those things. Those are not inconsistent either. Um, and I wanna say a little aside word about this, because right now it does feel in the culture, there's this very strong, everything is binary right now. Yes. You're either for us or against just you're here or you're there. . And I think that's a false binary. I, I have long believed that. My wife, uh, as you know, is a justice on the court of appeals here in the state of Texas. That's the, uh, appellate level court in the state that mirrors the circuit court. The, the, anyway,

George (22:06):

It's a mirror

Eric (22:06):

To the federal system. That's right. It's one step below the Yes. Supreme Court in Texas. She was a bench judge for many years. And so, uh, we have, I have personally . Seen her be threatened with a litigant with a gun trying to get to her court . That . Actually happened to us. I have seen, uh, stalkers who came to our house and threatened my wife, threatened me . Threatened our daughter. So, I am incredibly empathetic for how hard it is to be a public official Yes. In the legislature, in the courts, to be a dog catcher, to be a police officer. Take your pick. Public service is very hard right now. Yes. So, a part of why I wanted us to pray for public services wa was precisely that. I understand they have a hard job. At the same time, I think they have a duty to act justly and with compassion.

Eric (23:02):

And I have a question for them about what are they doing to harm their own souls. To me, what is going on in our country right now is that the tactics that we have often used on foreign adversaries in a foreign country are now being used in the United States of America. And if you remember, I was a kid, but in the Vietnam era, there was a lot of debate about, people were very angry at the soldiers who were just following, following their orders. We also saw a tremendous number of soldiers come back wounded, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, not even their physical bodies, mentally spiritual, and emotionally for the rest, rest of their lives. I am 100% confident that that is happening to some ice agents Right now

George (23:51):

We call this moral injury. Yes.

Eric (23:53):

Thank

George (23:53):

You. Yes. We speak, speak to that. Yeah. Well, we, what happens is you have a sense of morality and standards. Yes. But you are put in a position where to do your job and to follow orders and to take care of your family, and to feel like you are being patriotic, you are doing things that contradict That's right. Your moral code. And in doing so, you have to make all sorts of compromises about that. But when you do it, it erodes that sense of your own integrity. And you carry that with you, and you have to defend it in certain ways that you don't even want to. And, and so this is, this is not the kind of position we want to put people in, and we

Eric (24:36):

Certainly don't wanna put law enforcement in it. Precisely. This is the hardest piece.

George (24:40):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So,

Eric (24:41):

Because it does kind of force them into a us or them. I'm gonna defend the job I'm doing and Yeah.

George (24:49):

And I think we should really say very clearly that the language of criminals, Rapists, All these sorts of things, vermin. Vermin, you know, this is not applicable to all migrants No. Who have come to this country. It's not, but it is being used to cover them all as a, a reason to, to go after more than the criminals.

Eric (25:18):

Absolutely.

George (25:18):

And if, if this whole effort were only to find the criminals That's right. People who had acted violently in this country, who were part of drug cartels, who were part of, of any of that, no one would be out. You and I would not be out.

Eric (25:32):

I can't imagine anyone would be support. No. Opposed,

George (25:35):

But when, when people protest this and then the, the, the language comes back that we just wanna let all these criminals lose. No, that's not what's happening. It's a lie. It

Eric (25:48):

Is. I mean, the only thing I can say about it is that's a lie. That is not the, not only not the intention, it's literally not what we're trying to do.

George (25:55):

So a lot of what's happening, Eric, in all of this, is not only fear that's taking place among the migrant community, but it's also being motivated by a fear for sure of, of, of fear, of, of, of loss. . Of some sort of social capital that happens when so many more people are around, uh, the, the, the loss of a, an imagination of a society that no longer exists, and an inability to adapt to a new society. For sure. So we have a lot of fear, but as, as we close, and you and I could talk about this for hours and hours as we close, I wanna look at your forearm.

Eric (26:36):

Oh, yeah.

George (26:37):

<laugh> Uhhuh . Yeah. So you have a reminder to yourself about this. Yeah. Tell everybody about your tattoo. Oh,

Eric (26:44):

<laugh>. Well, this is, uh, from the gospel of Luke in the, uh, Christmas story, the angel said unto them, fear not mḕ phobeîsthe, it reads, it reads this way in the Greek. And, uh, I, I am convinced that this is a, this is a primary message of the gospel over and over. Yes. That we are called as people of faith to not be afraid. It doesn't mean we won't have a fear reaction, but what our faith is supposed to do is help us deal with that fear reaction. Exactly. We are human beings. And we all have the innate sense. And so I do think that, uh, a fear of the other is a part of what's going on here, George, as, as you said, and there's a deep otherizing that's going on in the culture that is not helpful. We live in a very racially diverse society where really almost wherever you are now .

Eric (27:40):

And, uh, you know, in Oak Cliff, where I'm a pastor, we are absolutely, uh, black, white, Latino, latina, and trying to all live together as neighbors. And so these policies, what they do is they drive a wedge into the culture Yes. In a way that seeks to divide us and turn us on each other. And I'm afraid, among some people, it is working. And so that's why I think we need, that's where our faith can come in. Our faith can come in to, to, we can tell ourselves, we can tell the world. Yeah. Let's, don't be afraid. Let's hear that message Jesus said over and over to welcome the stranger and the foreigner. Jesus said it, not just the Old Testament. His very first sermon in Luke chapter four. . He's preaching to it. You were talking about the people who were wanting the, the past.

Eric (28:32):

And so Jesus goes to his hometown, very first sermon reads from the book of Isaiah, you and I know this passage. I think that's his mission statement that he reads out. Everybody's happy. They all applaud. Oh, this is good. More of the old way. . Then he says, now remember when the prophets Elijah and Elijah were sent, they didn't come to Israel. They went to a woman insent. They went to Naman, the Syrian. And what happens? The crowd turns, turns on him in a second. And it says they try to throw him off the cliff. So I think that's a, a powerful story for our time, because it reminds us that Jesus, from the very beginning of his ministry, the very first sermon he ever gave, is trying to preach this, uh, this demolishing a sense of there being an other. Yes. That we are all human. We must have laws, absolutely have to have laws, but we must see each other with humanity. And we gotta do that. The,

George (29:33):

The story you tell about Jesus and the outsiders and, and how that he was turned on because of that. This is also a word that we would like to say to our fellow clergy. A hundred percent. We know it's hard. Yeah. We understand that the pews are purple. Yes. That there are people of all political positions Yes. Out there. But the, the duty that we have is to follow to the gospel, this gospel, this truth about, uh, the one who gave us our call. Yes. And, uh, so be not afraid. Be not afraid. Be not afraid. Uh, come and join us. Speak up. Uh, you know, leave it to God to sort all of this out, but it's up to us at least to speak and, and to invite others to join in this good work. . Of, uh, trying to treat people with full dignity as children of God. Uh, we thank you, Eric, for joining us on. Good God, thank you so much. Thank you for all your leadership in the community back at you and, uh, and at the church and, uh, for your friendship as well. And to all of you, thank you for listening. Until next time, keep the faith.