From DACA to Dallas: Sandra Avalos on Faith and Immigration Organizing

How does someone move from living in the shadows to leading in the light? In this episode, Sandra Avalos shares how her experience as a DACA recipient shaped her calling as a community organizer and advocate for immigrant families. She and her church, St. Thomas the Apostle Episcopal in Dallas, have built a network of allies accompanying migrants through court hearings and confronting the human cost of our immigration system. Her story shows how faith can take shape in the small, brave acts of showing up for others—acts that quietly push back against fear and make room for dignity to take root.

Sandra Avalos is a Dallas-based community organizer, DACA recipient, and leader with Vecinos Unidos DFW and St. Thomas the Apostle Episcopal Church.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:00):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we are continuing our series about immigration and the challenges of this present day, especially for people of faith, uh, in response to what's happening to people in our country who we will generally call migrants. And we'll talk more about definitions in a moment, but to do so, I'm delighted to be able to introduce to you our guest for this episode, Sandra Avalos. Sandra, thank you for being with us.

Sandra (00:33):

Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

George (00:35):

So Sandra is a community organizer. . Uh, something that for a lot of people came to an awareness when Barack Obama ran for president . That he was a community organizer. What in the world is that? Yeah. And, and, and how, what would you tell people a community organizer is?

Sandra (00:52):

So I actually started organizing right after college. Okay. Um, and for me it was just how do we as community, uh, come together and support one another. Okay. And learn together about the different structures in place, anywhere from how to attend a city hall meeting to, you know, how to go speak to Congress. I have had the opportunity to go out to DC and speak out there. Um, also, what does it look like being in front of, uh, press and speaking, um, and navigating for myself, even both languages in Spanish and in English. Um, and then navigating conversations even with my family. Um, I remember the first time that I was in, uh, in front of a camera for, um, by the time I made it home, my family thought I was running for office <laugh>. And so I was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works. Um, I was like, I, I believe in storytelling and I believe in the power of my story. So I definitely, um, part of the work that I did was encouraging folks to share their story. And so as I was navigating on myself learning how to do that, I was also doing it on the ground and then empowering other folks to do so.

George (02:01):

Wonderful. Now you've applied that to your, uh, relationship to your church. . Which it's St. Thomas the Apostle. Yes. Episcopal church in Dallas. Yes. Uh, and St. Thomas we recall, uh, was the one who sort of doubted, right? . And so your congregation has a lovely phrase about themselves. Yeah. They call themselves the doubters. The doubters, yes. Really the doubters of great faith. . But the doubters for short. . Uh, and it's a, it's a really kind of neat, um, title that they live into because they, they live their faith with a level of humility and service. And I know that because your, your rector, uh, Christopher Thomas is just so wonderful at embodying that . But, uh, your congregation decided that it wanted to become active . In the community, and you made the decision that you would focus . On immigration, right? Correct. So tell us more about that. Yeah.

Sandra (03:04):

So I, as a community organizer, we have been, since the new administration came into power, we have, um, organized to do, uh, know your rights and power of attorneys. So I was going and reaching out, um, to different churches and see who will host us to, to be able to, to be able to have a safe space for families who can come in. And so, um, as I was doing the work, I was reaching out to one of my mentors and she was like, Hey, I really think you should get in contact with, um, with Christopher. And he's the one that reached out first. Um, actually, he was the one that was like, yes, please utilize the space. Um, and, you know, to be honest, I had been a little bit away from faith for quite some time. Um, and so in this, it kind of things, God does his work really beautiful.

Sandra (03:50):

Um, he, you know, we were able to connect just to start the project of the Know Your Rights and Power of Attorneys, but then our relationship, just human beings interacting, um, and doing the work together kind of created a bond. And even for my son, he was, he was actually the one that said, I think we should go to, we should start gonna St. Thomas. And so that's how, you know, organically the relationship Right. Began being built. And then I shared, I disclosed that I was daca, you know, I was very afraid of what was gonna happen to myself and . Other folks in the area that were under daca. Um, you know, we knew we were un under, um, rating from, from the ruling from the courts to see if even DACA was gonna continue in Texas. And so I was really, you know, sharing that.

Sandra (04:35):

And he's like, tell us how we can help you. And so, um, we, we started conversations, we started meeting, and I told him, Hey, like, I'm a community organizer at heart. I look, it looks like us organizing, uh, here, folks at church, um, more than ever. We need allies to be, you know, in the front, um, of the lines of some of this work. And so, in conversations, we talked about what are some key roles that we believe are gonna help us in the movement? And so we started having those conversations and creating this alliance. And now it slowly has spread out to other churches, and we're excited.

George (05:08):

Lovely. Before we get into that . You've already mentioned that you are daca. Correct. Okay. So let's clarify what that means. . And tell us more about your story, because I think it's an, it's an important aspect of this entire, uh, continuum of the status of, uh, people who are not citizens . Who are living in this country.

Sandra (05:31):

Yes. So, my family and I immigrated to the US and arrived here in August of 1996. Uh, and

George (05:38):

You were seven years old?

Sandra (05:39):

I was seven years old when I arrived. And, um, so I, I was, I, you know, I, my family was like, okay, we're gonna enroll you in school. So, um, the four of us were enrolled in school. You went, you know, as typical kids, we went through elementary school, middle school for high school. I went to Townview. That's where I learned that I wanted, I wanted to service, uh, to be service to the community for some time. I grew very Catholic, so I thought I was gonna be a nun <laugh>. So, you know, um, I was thinking graduating from high school and, you know, going to the convent. But I remember right before one of my mentors who was a nun also said, Hey, I don't think you should go into the convent. And I was like, why? I'm doing everything great. I, I'm going retreats.

Sandra (06:22):

I, I go to confession. I'm here at the convent. I feel like every day I go to church with y'all. And she was like, I don't think so. 'cause if you go in there, you are gonna stare the pot, and I'll think we're ready for you. Oh, <laugh>. And did I remember that? And I was just like, what? I can listen. I can follow the rules. Um, but little did I know what she, you know, she saw in me . Um, and she genuinely saw that, you know, that I had this fire in me and that I had a, a, a fire for justice and that, um, and that that was gonna bring me into where I am today. . So I was very disappointed. She left. And right after that, I ended up getting married and had my son, um, went off to college. And then after that, I, I start, I, I learned about the movement.

Sandra (07:08):

I learned that, um, right before I was, I was finishing my associates and ready to transfer to, um, to University of North Texas where I received my bachelor's. Um, at the time I was completely undocumented. Um, but I've heard of the movement of the Dreamers. The Dreamers, the dreamers, and how the dreamers were, had won instate tuition for the state of Texas, and how Dreamers have continued to organize and how Dreamers were working in the Obama min, um, um, Obama's campaign, and that we're gonna, you know, help 'em get into presidency so we can pass the famous Dream Act. And so I remember hearing that, and as I was going through, through, um, my associate's degree, and then, um, Obama wins, and we hear in 2012 that he passed, um, a program that would allow folks like myself to get a work authorization program and to, and to be able to, um, be in this country without fear of deportation.

Sandra (08:05):

And so then I was like, what? That's crazy. I remember by that time, unfortunately, my dad had already been arrested and deported. So I remember he called me from Mexico, and he was just like, Hey, like, are you gonna apply for it? Or what are you thinking? And I'm like, this is fresh. Like, we're waiting to see, because I mean, basically now we're gonna come out of the shadows and tell the government they we're here. And so I was like, that's, that's a little nerve wracking . Um, because not only are you disclosing about yourself, but you're also disclosing about your family now. And so it's like, this is, has to be a family decision. . I'm gonna let people know that, you know, I also have a mom that's still undocumented. I also have siblings that are undocumented. And so it was kind of like, mm, lemme go ahead and finish my undergrad, and then we'll figure that out.

Sandra (08:48):

So I finished my undergrad, um, and right around that time I was like, okay. I told myself that I, once I finished it, I was gonna apply. So I apply. And as I was trying to see like, what was the, the community that, that was around there, I learned of this organization called the North Texas Dream Team. And that they were a grassroots organization that had created a, um, a system in which folks can come in and get assistance in completing the DOC application. And then sometimes they will give out scholarships to pay the 4 65. And then you will have attorneys that will come and do, um, you know, dot the, i's crossed the T's before you send it out. And I was like, this is amazing. This is community coming together. . And I remember I attended the first workshop, and I saw that people even donate cases of water.

Sandra (09:36):

You have moms that would like cook some rice and beans for the volunteers, and, you know, and I was just like, this is beautiful. Like, this is amazing. So I remember that I was talking to one of the co-founders, um, Marco Mal, and he was like, you know, we want daca. Right? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, you know, we, we are the ones that made DACA happen. We were the ones that did hunger strikes. We were the ones that were doing civil disobedience. Some of us were even getting arrested and deported, and we were showing the Obama administration that even Dreamers can get deported . And so I was like, whoa. I was like, that opened up my eyes to see people power for the first time. Yes. And then he, he, uh, he invited me and my son to go out to Austin, um, as work was being done against us before.

Sandra (10:22):

So we were learning about how, as before was a show me your, uh, show me a papers law that was gonna come into play, how the, um, um, Abbott's was, had signed it on a Sunday. I was like, not on the Lord's Day. Like, and so I remember we went out there, we did an action. I, I showed up to the Capitol, I walked in, and, you know, for the folks that have been out there, you'll see the different floors. For me, it was powerful because each floor was full with hundreds of people yelling, undocumented, unafraid. And I just . I was just like, what is this? . And I remember that I was some kind of way, I, I was with one of my friends, and at the time, now, my best friend told her, keep an eye on my son. I'll be right back.

Sandra (11:12):

And I walked in as they were having a, a hearing, and I saw people drop banners and we, and, you know, young people chanting s in undocumented, unafraid. And, and the representative from a Richardson area yelling into the crowd that, you know, that to the Texas Rangers, get 'em, they're undocumented. Get 'em, I'm gonna call ice on all ya. And I was like, whoa. And the people stood ground, like they were not moving until slowly the Texas Rangers were able to get 'em out and all of that. But I remember I walked out and, and that was it. . Like, the rest is history. I think that for me, it was just like, that was the moment. That was the moment. Yeah. I became, um, an activist. An activist. Yeah. And, and then from there, I just started traveling to DC speaking to, to Congress, doing civil disobedience and all that. Let's,

George (12:09):

Let's just stop and back up for a moment . And say, you are a dreamer. . And people may not really understand what that means. . So when we talk about the roughly 538,000 people . Who are in this country, who are so-called dreamers, what that means is that you were brought to this country, you came to this country without making that decision for yourself. . Uh, and so you find yourself in the country, and you have grown up in the country nearly 30 years now. . Paying taxes, contributing to society, going to school, doing the things that you've done, uh, but you don't have legal status. . And so when we, when we talk about people like you, we, we often talk about you as being fairly innocent in that respect . But people often want to go straight to who's guilty then too, right? . . And this is a sensitive matter as well. . Uh, tell us about how important language is Yes. When we talk about people who are undocumented . About how they came, about, what their status is, so that we can honor the dignity and protect the, uh, the, the people, uh, from being unfairly labeled.

Sandra (13:39):

Yeah. Thank you for that. 'cause I, I think that's one of the conversations we have been having for some, for some years now, about the importance of even verbiage of they brought her here. . No, I like to say that I came here with my family . Even the verbiage of, you know, um, illegal versus undocumented, um . All this link, all this different, um, verbiages that have been used to criminalize folks is, is, is a strategic way of finding ways to take away the humanity of folks, right? Yes. And, and, and when we take away the humanity of folks, it's much easier for us to other them and be able to put 'em in cages other, other them, and be able to see that they have hundreds of, of, of, of kiddos, you know, that have just experienced a traumatic experience, uh, like it is crossing, like the way I cross.

Sandra (14:35):

And the only difference between that kiddo that's in that cage and me is that the laws are different now. We have used verbiage, we have been able to criminalize folks for as simple as crossing, and now we keep 'em in cages. Versus when I came in that I was seven years old, and because there was a different structure in place, I was not ne I was never put in a cage. I was never kept there in the cold away from my mom, away from my siblings. And so that's why it's important that we don't dehumanize people. We don't use verbiage that dehumanizes people, because that's a much easier way to create harm to those people. So

George (15:13):

I think you said something that's important also in the midst of this, and that is that that circumstances were different . When you came . Versus the way, uh, they were being treated today . And yet the law was not really different. . It was the enforcement of the law. Exactly. Right. I think, I think it's really important for people to understand that the, the goalposts keep shifting. . And, uh, people who are migrants in this country are thought of differently . Even from time, what whatever administration . Is or whatever the spirit in the moment is of the American people. Uh, and, and yet their legal status hasn't changed. The law hasn't changed. . Nothing has changed . But you feel the weight of that different shift and, and, and the way law enforcement operates. Right.

Sandra (16:11):

And I think to highlight that is that, let's start with just the infrastructure of ice, for example. . ICE was not, uh, an entity that was active when I came in, right? Yes. ICE came in after September 11, right? Right. And ICE first originally started so-called to be able to hold terrorists. Right. And now you, the same entity that is supposed to hold terrorists is now holding children and youth and moms. And so let's start with that and how it, it is an infrastructure that is created essentially to make sure that the folks that have invested get their money's worth back. Hmm. That is what it's the whole entity is about, right? . People that have invested, they want their money back and some, right. And so I think we definitely have to make

George (17:00):

Invested in what

Sandra (17:01):

Invested in, in the infrastructure. You have, um, folks that are invested from the phone companies that give accessibility, where you have technology that's invested in there. So you have, uh, folks that pay so that they can make phone calls. It's a $52 . Um, there's also ways that people can, uh, have access to a tablet where you can get text messages where you can, um, uh, do face calls and all of those, um, are either 20 cents to 15 cents a a . A message. . Um, the FaceTimes, they can list up to increments of 30 minutes. After those 30 minutes. You,

George (17:37):

So what you're saying is the more people are apprehended Correct. And have to go through the access then of these tools of technology, the more the people who've invested in the technology gets paid . And that, and that includes private prisons as well, correct. And detention centers.

Sandra (17:54):

Exactly. So they're run, they're run like private prisons. Yeah. And, and for every person that's in there per day, there's a quota filling up that space. It's a quota. So you have people that are held in a cell, you know, minimum 30 to to 60 people in one cell. Human beings that are being held, which,

George (18:12):

Which also goes to the bond question. . Right. So for people to be out on bond . Means that they're not going to these detention centers . They're not going to prisons. . They're not, and not filling up those beds . Where people who've invested in those are getting paid Exactly. For every person that's there. Exactly. So therefore, when we have a, you know, a Texas decides to, you know, say there'll be no more bonds . Right. What they're really saying is in effect, whether you are a danger to society or not, we, we have to, we have to fill up these . Detention centers and these business. Correct. Correct. Yeah. So I, I I think it's important for people to realize that, that there are economic incentives . That are at work in this . And this is not merely about legal status.

Sandra (19:01):

Not at all. Yeah. 'cause you're, you're having folks that are being apprehended at the, at the court hearings. Right. If if it's about doing it the right way, then why are you arresting people that are in the middle, middle of their hearings? They're in the middle of their process that are waiting to hear . Um, if their asylum seek application is gonna be processed, if the U visa is gonna be

George (19:22):

Okay. You mentioned asylum seeking . And, and court hearings. So let's, let's remind people . That the law says . That if someone has come to this country . And is fleeing violence and persecution or, or persecution . And is fearful for their life, they can, they can cross into this country without going through the, the, the immigration process, step foot, and declare that they are seeking asylum . And be immediately put into the immigration system . Where a hearing will take place. Correct. And it will decide whether they have a right to be an asylee and to, and to, and to stay in the country . And if not, they will go . But now we have decided sided without changing the law that we will not hear any asylum claims. . So we have all these people who have not broken the law . When they crossed into declare for asylum . But we have said that they have broken the law because we won't accept anymore. . Asylum claims. . Am I wrong about that?

Sandra (20:40):

Nope. Unfortunately, that's the state that we're in. And even folks that have entered, you know, a year ago, two years ago in that process, now we're saying, Nope, we're gonna kick 'em out automatically if they've been here less than two years, we're gonna kick 'em out. And so it's like we're supposed to give them parole. We're supposed to give them an opportunity for a hearing for them to ha show the evidence of that they, uh, in effect or fearful going back to their home country. Right. And they, it is our responsibility to provide that support.

George (21:09):

So when you talk about court hearings . What's happening now is that people who are doing everything the law tells them to do . And going to their court hearings, some of them don't ever get out of the building again, right? . They are apprehended . After their court hearing because ICE is present in the corridors. . Waiting for them to come out . Which is, uh, why part of your immigration, uh, interfaith Migration Alliance work . Is around, uh, training people to be court observers. Explain what happens when you do that.

Sandra (21:52):

So we have created an infrastructure, um, to support folks that are getting ready to have a hearing. Um, we have reached out to community, we have asked support of allies, um, to come and bear witness to some of the things that are happening. And we have created so that folks can plug in into a role wherever they feel more comfortable. . Right. Does it look like you just help folks be guided into which floor they need to go to, which courtroom they need to go to? Does it look like you sit with the kiddos that are there along with their parents? Does it look like you can go into the court and take notes of what's happening? We need to also start, um, you know, recording. Um, what are we seeing in a different court hearings? Um, does it look like, and, and these are definitely for the folks that are more stronger in spirit, um, but does it look like you go in and, um, and actually record when someone's being apprehended? Um, a lot of the times folks are surprised, um, that they're being apprehended and nine times outta 10, either a family member is downstairs waiting for them and the car waiting for them, or at home waiting for them. And so, um, or some folks, you know, just don't know. And family members are left wondering where their loved one is. They, they,

George (23:10):

Their cars are left there. . Their phones are, are taken . Their families don't know what's taken place, where they have gone. . How to contact them. . And they're not shown due process, given a phone call, any of those things.

Sandra (23:24):

And with the government shut down, the ice locator is also down. So we're not able to, to locate family members in, in the, in the ice database either.

George (23:33):

Okay. So, so all these things people just need to be aware of . And what you have found, I understand, is that the more people are present . In the court . And in the hallways supporting those who are coming for their hearings, the less likely it is ICE will apprehend them. Yes. The, the fewer people are around, the more likely they will apprehend someone to take them. . Now, what do you make of that?

Sandra (24:04):

You know, it's all about intimidation. It's all about intimidation. Um, the tactics that are used, um, the aggression that is used and it lives, even the folks that are sitting there waiting to go in next for their hearing, very traumatized, very, you know, very distraught to see that someone was just apprehended. And does that mean that once I get out, does that mean I'm gonna be apprehended? Right. And so it's definitely something where, I mean, even for us, it's a hit and miss. We cannot tell who's gonna be apprehended and who's not. Right. So we can't even guarantee either or . Um, and even like for Christopher, father Christopher, that has had some time to be there, even for him, it was just, can I sit and pray with you? Yes. Can I sit here and be in community with you as right as we wait to see what unfolds? Right. Yeah.

George (24:51):

So there are people who are probably disturbed by this . Who are listening to your story. And of the things that you're saying, um, maybe they're alarmed, maybe they didn't know everything that is really taking place, and maybe they say, I'd really like to do something. . I'd like to get involved somehow. . What would you say to them?

Sandra (25:12):

You know, get activated at your churches? There it, for, at least for me, it was, it was being vocal about my experience. It was being vocal about, you know, that I need that support, that I need community. Um, that the, that I truly believe in that, um, it's gonna, it's gonna take us, you know, in Spanish, we have a say in El Pueblo. Pueblo, the community saves the community. And I truly believe that. I truly believe that it is gonna be, um, folks like yourself and Father Christopher to be vocal and to uplift our humanity. 'cause that's one of the key things that I want us to not forget in this moment. That all that, at the end of the day, we're all humans and we all deserving of a dignity life. Right. And so I think that the main thing I will ask is that, start with that, start activating your church.

Sandra (25:57):

I, I'm a thousand percent sure that there's like-minded folks around you that I, y'all can say, Hey, like, let's get trained on, on going to court hearings, or Hey, there's a demonstration going on, let's go and support that. Hey, like, they're gonna be doing phone calling. There's different campaigns going on locally. I mean, just locally here, we had our, our friend Omar Salazar, that was picked up by ICE in Lubbock. We had a huge campaign asking for donors, asking for people to call. Right. Asking for letters of support. Now we're in the middle of asking people to just write to him as he's standing strong to continue to be in this country. So there's different ways for folks to, to do their part wherever they feel most comfortable.

George (26:35):

And if, if, if anyone would like to be trained in as a court observer or to, to join one of the, uh, task forces or committees that you, how would they contact you?

Sandra (26:45):

So we do have it where folks can, um, call us directly at St. Thomas and there that we, we will plug them in into the other committees. There's a, folks are spec very specific, interested in the court hearings. We do have casinos, uh, Unidos, uh, DFW. We have a, um, document where you can register and then we will contact you when to let you know when the next training is. And,

George (27:06):

And I think it's important for people to realize you don't have to know what you're doing . To begin with. . Because there's training . That will take place . And you, you can then be part of a community of people and you can find out, you, you can decide when you are available. . And how you can plug in as a result of that. Yes. St. Thomas, the Apostle Episcopal Church in Dallas and Sandra Avelos, thank you for sharing your story, for your good community organizing, for your passion for humanity, and, uh, for your faith. We're very grateful. Uh, thank you. We're, we're glad to be in partnership with you in this important effort. Thank you so much. And for all of you who have stayed with us through this conversation, until next time, thank you. Keep the faith.

Sandra (27:54):

Thank you so much.