Mara Richards Bim on What Chicago Is Teaching Us

As immigration enforcement intensifies in cities like Chicago, people of faith are grappling with how to respond. In this episode, George Mason speaks with Rev. Mara Richards Bim—Justice & Advocacy Fellow at Royal Lane Baptist Church in Dallas—about what she witnessed during a recent visit, where clergy and community members are confronting tear gas, chemical agents, and tactics that feel more like military operations than targeted law enforcement. Together they explore the theological stakes: What does it mean to love our neighbors—including ICE agents—while rejecting violence and mission creep? How do Christians read Scripture faithfully in a politicized moment? Mara also shares her call story, the need for public theology, and why clergy voices matter when “keeping the peace” isn’t the same as making peace.

Rev. Mara Richards Bim is an ordained minister, theater artist, and longtime advocate for justice and inclusion whose work bridges faith, art, and public engagement.

Watch the video, here.

George (00:00):

Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public Life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we're continuing our series of Good God conversations about the subject of immigration today and all the things surrounding that and how the faith community is responding to it as well. Which leads me to introduce to you someone many of you already know. <laugh>, our good friend, Mara Richards. Bim Mara. Glad to have you back on. Good God.

Mara (00:29):

I know. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

George (00:31):

For those of you who don't know, Mara worked with Faith Commons, rabbi Nancy Kasten and I at Faith Commons for, uh, you know, really about two years, I guess. . Something like that. . But now she has left us. Yeah. <laugh>, uh, we continue to work alongside one another Yeah. And with one another, but she is the justice and advocacy fellow. . Uh, the first ever position, uh, in, at Royal Lane Baptist Church here in Dallas. Yeah. And she is still stirring up good trouble.

Mara (01:02):

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Trying to, yeah.

George (01:05):

Now Mara, we talked with Eric Folkerth . Uh, on good God about, uh, our clergy vigils . That we hold on Monday mornings at the Ice Field office on Stemmons . Here in Dallas. Those are very peaceful sort of prayer vigils. And yes, we have signs that are protest oriented, but we're not confrontational. Right. In that approach, we're there to provide a kind of, uh, presence and witness and a, a, a sort of physical reminder to the people in that building and to the migrants coming that we believe God is at work. . And present and calling us to, uh, you know, act justly and, and, and with mercy and kindness. So that's what we do in Dallas. But you have just returned . From visiting Chicago. I have. And you have been chronicling, uh, on Facebook Live and, uh, in your writings, what's going on there? . Tell us more.

Mara (02:08):

Yeah. So, um, golly, where to begin. Um, I went there because, um, it recently came to light that, um, there were some clergy who were part of a protest outside of the Broadview Detention Facility, which is very much like our facility in downtown Dallas. It's really only meant to be short term, a temporary short term, and it is being used much longer than that. . So it came to light that, um, a Presbyterian pastor, Reverend David Black was shot in the face. . As he held his arms up in prayer, shot in the face with a, um, I didn't know there was such a thing, but a pepper spray bullet. Uh, and so he is now suing, uh, along with some of the other protestors. He, he was not the only clergy person who has had chemical agents used on him. And so, uh, I went up there and I connected with a lot of faith leaders there, mostly Christian, who are just now starting to organize because, you know, whereas we started organizing here in Dallas back in April . When we had two of our community members kidnapped and sent to Sea Cot. Right. This is new for them. It's been in the last five weeks . That ICE has really . Um, shown up there. And what's happening there is very different than what's happening here. It is a full on military assault on the city. You can see video. There was a, an apartment building, an entire apartment building Yes. Where Black Hawk helicopters and, and agents repelling down using flash bang grenades. These are families zip tying little kids up.

George (03:57):

Right. People coming out naked from their homes

Mara (03:59):

,people coming out. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Not allowing people and and you

George (04:03):

Didn't even put clothes on. Right.

Mara (04:03):

Yeah. Um, so you have, uh, instances of that. You have instances of agents, you know, the, what happened yesterday? I got the first word of it right as I was sitting on my plane about to head back to Dallas, but, um, the tear gassing in public streets has been happening. Yeah. Um, more recently it happened right in front of an elementary school and there were kids on the playground and they had to be like, you know, rushed away. So what's happening there is very, very different . And so you are seeing a very different response.

George (04:34):

Why is it different in Chicago than it is in Dallas?

Mara (04:37):

Yeah. Well, I think if you listen to the rhetoric of our president, um, he has, uh, very intentionally targeted what he sees as a progressive city in a progressive state in Chicago. . Um, certainly the clergy there, uh, feel that as well that they, that, that he is trying to target this particular city . And bring it to heal . Um, whereas here in Dallas, we're in a Republican state and Sure. Dallas is . Bluish <laugh>, but,

George (05:09):

But a red mayor

Mara (05:10):

Yes. But a red mayor. And so it's just a very different dynamic here. Right. And so I think that, that it really is about politics there. Okay. Um, and trying to make a really clear, uh, statement . And I mean, it, it, it's really shocking. I was only there about three days, talked with a number of people, um, interacted with, um, state, uh, police who were at the Broadview facility. You know, the governor's in an interesting situation. He is trying to keep, um, the National Guard out . And so he

George (05:43):

From Texas.

Mara (05:44):

From Texas, yeah. Texas National Guard up there. Right. And, um, he's trying to, you know, say, no, we can handle this ourselves. And so in doing that, the Illinois State police are having to guard the facility and the ICE agents. So they're getting wrapped up in this. It's just, It's awful.

George (06:02):

Instead, instead of law enforcement, uh, you know, deescalating things. Right. Which, uh, it sounds like the state police are trying to do there. Yes, they are. But, but because ICE's mission Yes. Has been ramped up Yeah. By, uh, uh, by going beyond using a scalpel to find the criminals . Who, uh, need to be identified. Correct. Uh, this is escalating now. Yeah. And when you escalate the response escalates also . And so where are the grownups here to, to sort of tamp this down and say, this is America?

Mara (06:49):

I mean, I, I think that the people that I interacted with, the citizens, the clergy, are they recognize the difficult situation that their local law enforcement and their state law enforcement is in . But those are the people they would like to protect them Yes. From federal agents who are acting lawlessly. Yes. So they are, um, there was an article in the last week that about, um, 70% of the people arrested have no criminal record whatsoever. That's right. Um, I saw an a, b, c news story from Chicago today that, um, of the between 1,015 hundred arrested 10 people . Were identified as having criminal records. Right. People are being disappeared. They're scooping up citizens as well

George (07:43):

On the streets,

Mara (07:44):

Not just on the street. Oh, yeah. No, no. None of this is happening again, it's not like, oh, we have a warrant and we're going after this person. . Um, the majority of of the time they are going to a neighborhood and they are just scooping up people no warrant.

George (08:01):

Well, and they have, uh, the ability to, uh, to, to now, um, target people by profiling them.

Mara (08:14):

Oh, right. Yes.

George (08:15):

The Supreme Court 'cause the, because the Supreme Court has said Yes, that is correct. You can actually profile people now and that you can sort it out later. Correct. That is correct. You can, but you can apprehend them Correct. Without cause.

Mara (08:27):

Correct. And that's, and, and I would also add, um, was it two weeks ago now that all of our military generals and admirals from around the world Yes. Were called here and our president talked about the enemy within, and that American cities are gonna be, or should be the training ground for military. I think as an observer, and I heard this from folks who living there, it very much seems as if ICE has taken him up on that challenge. And I mean, I heard one person describe it as Fallujah. I was out there in, uh, protests with former military people, right, yeah. Who are, who have seen combat Right. Overseas, and now they're seeing it in their own city. It is really shocking.

George (09:16):

So I think, I think the thing that when we're, when we're talking to people who are, um, you know, like us deeply concerned about this, there, there's, there's sort of one response to it, but there's, there's also people we I know who will be listening to this, who will be saying, I just really have a hard time believing that this is happening in this way. It just sounds like liberal talking points and people who hate our president, people who hate our, our, our government, and don't we have the right to have law enforcement do their job in rounding up people who are here illegally. And I, I think we should really be able to say to people that, you know, there's a difference between carrying out your lawful duty . In a way that treats people with dignity . And that actually fulfills the mission that was stated. And, uh, instead using violence and intimidation and expanding your mission beyond what you said. . You, you can't have it both ways. Right. You can't say, we're going to, we're going to trust the federal government, and then they break that trust. Yeah. And we're not supposed to say anything in return. I know. I agree. This is part of the problem.

Mara (10:45):

It is.

George (10:45):

You know, it's, so when there's pushback, then the people who push back, including the faith, community, community, are considered Antifa or enemies of the state or the enemy within . And this puts people of faith in a really difficult position. It does. Right?

Mara (11:04):

Mm-hmm

George (11:04):

So you are a person of faith. Yeah. You find yourself in the midst of all of this . And in Chicago, what are you hearing them say? People of faith who are out on the front lines in the midst of all of this happening.

Mara (11:16):

I mean, a a most of the people and as a Christian, right? Yep. We are Christians and, um, and certainly other faith traditions, uh, rely on this. But, um, our greatest commandment is to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. Yes. And so that is, you know, those of us in the, and

George (11:34):

and that that includes everybody.

Mara (11:35):

That is everybody. Right.

George (11:36):

And that includes ice <laugh>,

Mara (11:37):

Correct? That is correct.

George (11:39):

Correct. That's important to, to recognize

Mara (11:40):

That is correct. Yes. And that is why when we are there on Monday mornings, we pray for the moral harm that is happening to these Absolutely. Agents. I will tell you, um, there were four agents staying at the hotel I was, was staying at. Okay. I did not, I I didn't realize it until, uh, the day before I left. I was walking in as they were walking out in their getup . And all young men . I would say twenties, early thirties, right? . Um, I, you know, I'm juggling things. I I, I couldn't get photos of them. I got a photo of the back of one of them walking away and a photo of their van, and then yesterday morning I thought that maybe they had left, you know, but no, they're staying there long term. I went out to my car y morning and I saw their van was still there.

Mara (12:30):

So then I sat down in the, uh, there was like a free breakfast, whatever. One of them finally came down. We made eye contact, he recognized me. He got his food, he went over to a corner and he sat facing the wall, like hiding his face. Literally, I think we have to talk about the moral harm that is being done to these young men. Yeah. And where that, I mean, at a certain point, they get so down this path Right. That they too become agents of evil. Yeah. And we have to. Right. It's a mess. And as, as, um, religious leaders, we've gotta start speaking into this, all of it, you know, not only for our neighbors, but also for what is being asked of these young, so these four young men, they're staying in a hotel. They're clearly not from there. Right. Where are they come, they're one unit. How many of these units are being brought in to that city? Right. Do they have families? I mean, all of these things are, and he's hiding his face.

George (13:35):

So when you listen to Steven Miller, Christie Nome, people who represent . Uh, the people who are running these operations, they clearly state and they clearly believe, uh, that they are on God's side in this. Yeah. And they use language . Of faith . About the mission that they are seeking to accomplish . . Um, how do we, how do we help people wrestle with this in a way that, that, that, that helps us find common ground? Because this feels like a, a they are, they have created a kind of apocalyptic . Uh, conflict between pure good and evil. Yep. And you are either with them and with God, or you are against them and with the devil. Right. And where do we go when to, to sort of, uh, bring people to some sense of, uh, awakening to the humanity of everybody in the midst of this?

Mara (14:47):

Well, I'm glad you, you mentioned it and said it the way they said it, which is they are on God's side. Yes. Not that God is on their side. Yes. I think that's an important distinction. Yes. And I, and I, I think that, um, you know, sort of theologically, we, we need theologians to speak into this space as well and, and sort of gives some moral clarity. Um, God has always been on the side of the oppressed period . . Throughout all of scripture.

George (15:15):

All of scripture.

Mara (15:15):

All of scripture. Yeah. Um, God has never been on the side of empire or of oppression. Right. And so when a government is using the name of God, using it, abusing it, misusing it . To target those whom we know scripture identifies as being the ones God cares most about, I think we have to say that, and we have to just keep saying it over and over and over again, and loudly and in every space and every place.

George (15:54):

And I, I think it's important to say, when you say the people God cares most about, it's not that God doesn't care Sure. About people who are the oppressor.

Mara (16:05):

Oh of course.

George (16:06):

Or, or who are in positions of power . Or who are rulers and, and, and whatnot in society. . It is that they are judged on the basis of how they treat Correct. Those who are more vulnerable. Correct. Uh, it's not the other way around. Correct. And this is our biblical faith . And to, to read scripture and not to see that is . To read it with, uh, distorted lenses.

Mara (16:38):

Uh, yeah. Or to not, I mean, I, I I know I can't, yeah. I can't fathom. T Wright has a great new book, uh, co-written, um, came out at the end of last year that I just finished, um, that really is about, uh, the political powers and . And the Bible and there, and it addresses some of these issues that we're talking about. Right. I would encourage people to look at that because, um, you know, a lot of times these folks say that, oh, well, Romans says this, that we are supposed to

George (17:07):

Pray for the kings and people in authority, that God appointed him

Mara (17:09):

all these things. And, and in the book, it makes the point that, um, when a, when a government is behaving immorally . Is violating God's law. . Uh, the people are no longer, um, obliged mm-hmm. To f to that government. Right. That they, that they follow God and God's law.

George (17:34):

And I think it's really important to say too, that we do not have in the Bible a prescription for civilization No. That Christianity is supposed to promote. Right. Uh, part of the trouble we're having here is the use of Christianity. . Uh, to say it's, we have to use power to save and promote Western civilization.

Mara (17:58):

Right. Yes.

George (17:59):

There's nothing in the Bible that suggests that that's the case. <laugh>, there is only about how we live as, as people of faith. . In the midst of powers all around us. . The empires come and go. Governments come and go. . And so how do we live in Right. In faithful ways?

Mara (18:19):

I also think it's really quite arrogant, um, the folks who believe that they are needed to advance God's kingdom . Here in the United States. Right, right. R ight. Um,

George (18:34):

Yeah.

Mara (18:34):

God doesn't need us. Mm-hmm

George (18:37):

We need God.

Mara (18:39):

We do.

George (18:41):

Which leads me to the fact that you are soon to be ordained. I am November The first,

Mara (18:47):

November 1st, all Saints Day.

George (18:49):

You, you decided for people who don't know your story, <laugh>, you were, uh, in the theater world Yes. And, uh, had an awakening, uh, when, uh, the border crisis happened. Yeah. Um, uh, back in what year was this?

Mara (19:10):

Well, I first heard the call in 2018 when I . Was doing a show about guns and was at the NRA convention. Right. Right. And then, um, you know, like most, uh, folks ignored the call . And then went to the border in 2019. Right. And, um, heard the call again and, and finally got it through my head that maybe I should be following that.

George (19:33):

And you know, there, this is not the call for everyone Correct. To go to seminary. Right. To become an ordained minister. . Everyone can be involved and can follow the dictates of their faith Yeah. And their faith tradition and be involved . In advocacy and promoting justice and, and, and whatnot. But you decided . That it was important for you to do that. Yeah. And, um, and by the way, I wouldn't discourage people from that either. Sure. If you feel that maybe God is calling you, find, reach out to me, I'm, we'll be happy to help you take another step in that discern. Yes. Yes. That's what we do. Right. But why was it important for you to add this theological . Uh, and spiritual training . To what was otherwise for you? A passion for justice and for humanity. . You, you didn't only want to be a humanitarian, you wanted to be a minister that spoke

Mara (20:34):

Right.

George (20:35):

And promoted, uh, dignity and human rights.

Mara (20:39):

So it really has to do with that, um, the idea of theologians needing to speak into this space. . . Um, when I first, you know, 20 18, 20 19, um, you know, by now, Christian nationalism is such a phrase that's so overused almost. Yeah. But Christian supremacy, Christian nationalism, Christoph, fascism, whatever you wanna call it, um, was the dominant narrative and the dominant theology being put out Yes. Into the world. Right. And I wanted to understand intellectually the arguments of Christians throughout history, beautiful. To be able to engage on a really intellectual level with these, with this theology. Wonderful. And so I initially started, um, seminary, and I said, for two years I wasn't getting ordained. Right. Right. That was not, I just was really, uh, interested in, in developing the knowledge base to have the conversations. Right. And it was really in a, um, women's pilgrimage .

Mara (21:49):

Uh, to the holy Land with 100 women, half of them Baptist, half of them Methodist. There you go. Many of them ordained that I, I came back and said, yeah, no, I have to be ordained. . I think a lot of it has to do with you can't be what you don't see. And I did not see a woman preach until I was about 37, 38 years old. Incredible. Even though I grew up in a church tradition that ordained women. Right. The United Church, but I never up until that point. Right. You know . And so it's only been 10 years that I've seen a woman preach. Yes. And so, uh,

George (22:26):

And now you're a member of a church with a woman pastor.

Mara (22:29):

I am. I am. Yes. And so my daughter, who's nine is growing up seeing that Yes. So that she doesn't have to wait until she is, you know, was my age exactly. To see this. Right. Um, but yeah. And so it's really important to me. I think, um, again, it goes to this public theology and the voices that are necessary right now . Um, people of faith of all, you know, we need everyone speaking out, but I do think we need specifically clergy, ordained clergy. . Um, speaking into this moment, you know, the civil rights leaders, many of them were ordained clergy. Yes. And it, uh, they helped guide the moral conversation, the theological conversation. And that's what we need now.

George (23:13):

You know, I think as we wrap up this conversation, Mara, um, I think it's important to say to people that during times of reasonable stability in our country, uh, it, it, it may be that we develop the idea that the church's responsibility was to keep people calm . To maintain a sense of peacefulness in society, to, you know, always try to find the good Right. And not stir up trouble . And create problems. Um, but we find ourselves in a different moment right now. We do now, don't we? Very much so. And, and, and I think this idea of speaking up and of acting that feels confrontational . And uncomfortable to people. Yep. It's important to say that being a Christian is not about being comfortable.

Mara (24:13):

That is correct.

George (24:15):

And sometimes we have to sit with our own . Discomfort. Right. And reckon with what our call is. Right. That doing good is sometimes more than just seeming to be good. Right.

Mara (24:33):

Right. Right, right.

George (24:34):

It may create tension . In order to get to a piece that is made not a piece, a false piece that is kept. Correct. And what I see you doing is, uh, you have become a Baptist . And, uh, Mara, uh, one of my former professors, uh, wrote a book about Baptists and it was titled Not A Silent People.

Mara (25:03):

Oh, I'm gonna have to read that.

George (25:05):

I think you have joined quite a tradition, <laugh>. I do too. And you are perfectly suited for this role. Thank you for being with us on Good God. Having for all you do. Thank you.