The First Amendment Test: Imam Azhar Subedar, 25 Years After 9/11
As the nation marks the 25th anniversary of September 11, George Mason sits down with Imam Azhar Subedar, author of "I Am the Other: Debating the Role of Islam in a Divided America," to talk about what that anniversary means for Muslim Americans today. They discuss the rise of anti-Muslim rhetoric in Texas politics, what Sharia actually means and how it functions for practicing Muslims, and why Azhar believes the Muslim community must stop explaining who they are not and start showing who they are.
Imam Subedar was born and raised in Canada and completed ten years of Islamic studies in the U.K., graduating in 2000. He holds a Master's in Islamic Sciences and Arabic Literature and has served as an imam and educator at mosques and Islamic centers across the United States since 2002. Known for his commitment to interfaith dialogue, he has worked with state legislatures, governors, and presidents as an ambassador of Islam to the non-Muslim world.
Watch the video, here.
George (00:00):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I'm pleased to bring what I think is a special edition of Good God on this important occasion, this timing, just before the 25th anniversary of nine eleven. And the special guest I'm welcoming is Imam Azhar Subedar, uh, who is a local Imam and has written a book called I Am The Other: Debating the Role of Islam in a Divided America, along with his co-author, Robert Gary, uh, who is a Jewish attorney. And so we'll be talking about the book a bit, uh, but, uh, Azhar, I think, uh, first of all, thank you for joining me - Thank you for having me. For this conversation at this really important time in our country's life, in our state's, uh, life at the same time, uh, because so much is boiling up around this 25th anniversary of the terrorist attack, uh, in, uh, in, in New York and in, uh, Virginia and in Pennsylvania that, uh, was, uh, an event in America that changed a great deal.
George (01:20):
Yes. And it did for you too. Yes. I know that 25 years ago, uh, your life was shaken. Your sense of vocation and direction was shaken. Tell us what it was like for you back then, uh, because I think a lot of Americans think that, uh, their experience, uh, with respect to Muslims in America changed in that moment, but your experience as a Muslim American changed as well. Correct.
Azhar (01:49):
So, uh, thank you so much, George. Uh, as I wrote in the book, born and raised in Canada, graduated from the UK. Imagine studying over 10 years to become something that you feel could be your career path. It's your life. . And, um, while I was in India and Pakistan, I was literally traveling from Pakistan to India that day when nine eleven occurred. Right. And I wrote that horrific experience because, uh, our bus said Pakistani Indian Tourism or something like that, that bus had to be escorted straight to the depot because it was deemed a threat. And it's amazing, nine eleven just occurred, but now the tension between Pakistan and India could have escalated. . Uh, upon returning home, I wrote about an incident that occurred, uh, with Air Canada. And, uh, at that moment I realized that everything I worked for, everything that I strove to become was meaningless.
Azhar (02:42):
. Because what am I gonna do now? Go and become an imam at a time when Islam and Muslims are deemed, uh, evil, wicked. But, um, after contemplation and reflection, looking at my options of going back to college and getting a degree or working in a factory, I said, "I'm gonna come to the fire. I'm not gonna run from the fire. I'm gonna come to the fire." . And, uh, and that's why I moved to Florida in 2002. Exactly one year, one month after the nine eleven anniversary, uh, I moved to, uh, Florida. And I was the first Imam on the West Coast where I served and, um, it was tough. . Uh, the experiences that we had, uh, like, there were so many experiences to talk about, but the immediate aftermath of nine eleven hit Muslims in a way that, um, no one may, may have anticipated.
Azhar (03:32):
. Uh, the stares, the comments, the, you know, the vulgarity, um, you know, like get out of my country, get out of my space. When you are being bullied, uh, in a way that no one's physically hitting you, but they're shunning you - . It's really painful psychologically. Right. And just had to go with it. But I, again, I think for me it was running to the fire rather running from the fire is what allowed me to do what I was able to do and become what I am today.
George (04:03):
So a lot has happened for you - . And for the Muslim community in 25 years. Yes. We'll get back to that in just a moment, but now we are facing this anniversary and the tension is really building, uh, toward this anniversary. Um, you know, the aftermath of nine eleven initially created enormous, uh, shifts in people's perceptions of Muslims. Sure. And, uh, great anxiety about the presence of Muslims in our country. And now it seems to be accelerating again in anticipation of this, uh, anniversary. And it's probably not just that nine eleven is coming, there are other reasons politically and the like. Sure. Um, what are you feeling now, you personally, and what are you feeling in your community - uh-huh. In anticipation of this 25th anniversary of nine eleven?
Azhar (04:57):
Uh, consider it to be like a MMA UFC fighter. <laugh> Okay? And I'll tell you why it feels like that. If a person gets punched or hit, um, and they're not used to it, the bruising, the pain, the focus is, oh my God, my hand's bruised, right? But we've been consistently beat, uh, psychologically, mentally, uh, for the last 25 years. . And so you become numb to the fact that people are calling you out, uh, defaming you, saying derogatory things. But at the same time when you're feeling numb, you're also feeling a sense of, um, how could you put this? You're feeling numb to what they're saying, but you're also feeling this heightened fear. . Because it's like, I got used to this level of derogatory remarks and feelings that people are, are, are projecting my way, but I feel it's only gonna get worse.
Azhar (05:49):
It's only gonna get worse. So I'm gonna get ready for the next level. Someone's benching 100 pounds, they go to 150, they go to 200. . Uh, they, they increase the weight. So for them, it's about building their body. And for us, it's building our immunity and our stamina to - Yeah.
Azhar (06:04):
To, to actually just take in and absorb what people are saying. And we feel helpless. And a lot of us feel completely helpless. And that's one of the key reasons why don't you, why you don't see the Muslim community actually standing up and addressing these rhetorics that are being, that are, that are going viral, be it from our governor or anywhere else. Anyone else? We're just not able to do it because we've been beaten so much that's become the norm.
George (06:29):
Sure. Well, this is, this is also why, as you know, um, our organization, Faith Commons, uh, Rabbi Nancy Caston and I - Yes. Working alongside our, uh, fellow clergy and other people of goodwill, uh, clear, uh, the organization - Yes. The Clergy League for Emergency Action and Response. We've anticipated this moment. And as you know, there's going to be, uh, a presence of solidarity at mosques all over North Texas on that day - Thank you for that. Of the four prayers. Uh, in order, uh, to, in some ways, be a protective shield. Uh, we know that there's a possibility of, um, people showing up with ill intent. And, uh, in fact, we know there are plans for some of that to happen. Sure. Uh, and so, uh, but it's not just a reaction to those people. It's also a very clear intention that you need allies, you need friends.
George (07:29):
Uh, and if America is to be truly a pluralistic society - uh-huh. Uh, and to rise to its ideals, uh, the test case for that right now are Muslims in America. Whether Islam, uh, can be a respected religion that can be practiced alongside Christianity, Judaism, and other religions, uh, and experience freedom, uh, of religion and, and worship and, uh, be considered, uh, still good citizens and, and, and people who belong in our society, that's really the test case for the First Amendment today, I think, and for our society. So your fear as a community, it seems to me, uh, becomes something that the, uh, other religious communities should recognize and, uh, and, and stand alongside you in this time. But I will say that even putting out on social media, uh, this announcement that we were going to do so - Uh-huh. Uh, the blow back has been extraordinary.
George (08:39):
And I have, you know, I've received and heard all of these comments that, uh, I can, that, that are, are only, you know, this much of what you have experienced, of course. But they are common understandings of people, uh, that are largely, I think, misunderstandings. . And so I think it would be helpful right now for people to say, to hear you say, what are the things that you think are the, the list of misunderstandings that you would like to be able to clear up for people to reduce some of their anxiety about the, the presence of Muslims around them? Sure.
Azhar (09:21):
It's, it's, it's a loaded question, George. And at the same time, I, I wanna appreciate what you all are gonna do, uh, this upcoming Friday in solidarity with the Muslim community, to have your presence there to show solidarity and support, uh, because we already have many mosques who have, uh, individuals standing outside on the sidewalk - uh-huh. Um, preaching Christ or kind of telling the Muslims are going to hell, whatever else is happening, freedom of speech is there. But yes, uh, you are right when you say that the First Amendment is being tested right now when it comes to the Muslims. And it's a test of our time to see are the Muslims gonna prevail and succeed in upholding the First Amendment right? . But George, one thing that you're missing here is that, and I've been warning the Muslim community about this, by the way, that is for over a decade in the halls of Congress, the drums have been beating to remove Islam from the context of religion.
Azhar (10:15):
Yes,
George (10:15):
Right.
Azhar (10:15):
And so that First Amendment right will no longer exist. Right.
George (10:19):
It's a political ideology, not a religion. Thank
Azhar (10:22):
You. Yeah. And then when I've, when I understood this back in the days, because I did frequent DC and I worked with the White House faith-based community initiatives under President Bush and Biden, what I understood was that this is a slow buildup to something much bigger. . You can't hear something and say, "Okay, they're just saying..." No, there, there was a purpose behind it. And so the, the movement is that Islam is a political ideology that Muslims, wherever they go, their goal is to use Takia, which is not even a term in our religion, and to then, uh, embed themselves into society. And when, I don't know, the bat call happens or something - <laugh>. The bat signal goes out, we're just gonna take over the government. Right. And it's ironic that not even 1% of the American population can take over the, the entire country when in our elections we're literally neck and neck Democrats and Republicans and no one's able to make complete change.
Azhar (11:18):
But you're saying 1%'s gonna make the shift. So what is it that I want people to know? Uh, you're talking about the rhetoric and the response I saw on your post, uh, and of course you may see on my post on Facebook, I'm just getting a barrage, and I don't even get, take the time to read them. . But what it is, is that my first recommendation to anyone out there, you can listen to whoever you want to listen. You can believe whatever you wanna believe. We don't wanna talk about right or left here. . But God gave you the ability to think - uh-huh. To listen, to observe, and to speak. Right. So why don't you use your abilities to go and engage a Muslim and truly come into a mosque and say, "I'm really confused." Yes. "Can you explain to me what this religion is about?
Azhar (12:03):
Are you guys really here to take over America? Welcome to the mosque. Let me take you for tour." . We don't have a gun range inside there. Yeah. We don't have army training inside there, contrary to what some people are actually saying here in Texas right now. Uh, so if you can be at peace for yourself and you're happy to be in Texas, live your life, and there's Hindus and Muslims and everyone else, that's your success. . I'm calling people to get successful by calming their nerves and their stressors, per se, by realizing that whatever people are saying is not factual. What's only factual is what you're able to go and observe and witness and experience yourself.
George (12:46):
Right. Right. So, yeah. So, uh, Sharia - uh-huh. Uh, is a loaded term for many people. . Because there's an assumption - uh-huh. That, uh, it's not just that you will take over the government, but that you will institute religious law, Sharia, uh, in such a way that it will replace civil law. And this is, uh, this has led, uh, some congressmen from Texas to, to create the Sharia free - Caucus. Caucus, uh, American caucus. And this has been, you know, there, there are now, I think, more than 60 some or more congressmen who have signed onto this. . And this has become a, uh, you know, a, a, a crusade on their part, uh, to make sure that Muslims, uh, gain no foothold in America. . Some of them have actually said, "We won't rest until all Muslims are gone from America." So this is a, a, a really powerful moment.
George (14:00):
. And Sharia seems to be at the heart of it. So, uh, I know that to a certain extent in your book, this has been, uh, an, an exercise in trying to explain Sharia - Sure. Uh, so that people would understand what it is and not just imagine it to be something it's not. So, uh, for folks who are watching and listening, can you give us a, a, a quick rundown? What is Sharia and what is it not? Sure.
Azhar (14:26):
Sure. So, George, Sharia means a way of life that you follow. . Uh, in Islam, Sharia is the way of life that God told us to live by. . And, uh, realistically speaking, anyone in this world who follows a religion - Right. Who follows a path, they may be agnostic or even atheist, but they follow a certain system of life. . That's their Sharia. Yes. But Islamically, Sharia is divine code of life given by God. So I am a Muslim. It's like I signed a contract for, uh, your podcast. Now I must live by the contract, which is what time I should come, how I should dress, how I should behave. That is part and parcel of an employment contract. So being a Muslim means I sign a contract with God, I'm gonna live by the way you want me to, and so I could be rewarded in this world in the next.
Azhar (15:17):
Sharia is a system of life. Now, there are many pieces of the pie, per se. There's character, there's morals, there's community building. There's so much to it. . Uh, 7% of the Quran talks about law. And out of that 7%, 95% pertain to personal law, uh, 65% of that 95% is, uh, personal devotion, like prayer and stuff. And the other 35%, um, sorry, other 30% is, um, contracts, marriage, et cetera. The last 5%, uh, George, which is basically 22 verses pertain to Sharia penal law. Right. Now, if people in America believe that 22 verses of the Quran that speak about a system of civil law is gonna take over the constitution, it's kinda akin to how people used to tell me back in the days when I would go and venture into a church or a synagogue and engage with a preacher or a rabbi, they're like, "Don't go and engage with those people.
Azhar (16:22):
Why? Because they may take your mind over and convert you to Christianity, okay? When you are scared of who others, what others may do to you, that means you're not concrete and confident in who you are. Right. Are we saying that we're so scared that our constitution is so weak that less than 1% of the American population is gonna bring 22 verses of laws that they are going to basically take over the country? Uh, you tell me, George, does that even make sense? No,
George (16:54):
It, it doesn't make sense, but it, it, I think it's still those 22 verses nonetheless do speak to - They do. Uh, to these matters. And this is, you know, whether it's re- realistic or not, it is part of the religion. And so the question is then how do you manage in a modern society and in the constitutional America the fact that you have, uh, a, a book that is regarded by Muslims as the divine word of God, directly communicated, and therefore not to be, um, just disregarded if it's inconvenient. Mm. How do you take those 22 verses in this con- conversation and help people understand - uh-huh. That civil law still, uh, takes precedence over religious law - Uh-huh. Even in the language of this, you know, uh, these 22 verses of penal code.
Azhar (17:56):
I love that because just because it's 22 verses doesn't mean we have to undermine it and say that it doesn't matter. Right. Yes, Muslims believe in the Quran and they believe in every command that's instructed within the Quran. But that doesn't mean that each command has to be actively practiced every time at every moment. For example, Allan, the Quran talks about divorce, the process of divorce and what will happen pre and post-divorce. Because Allah instructed those, uh, steps, does that mean each of and every one of us has to actively divorce in order to practice that? No. It's a framework. It's a framework that if God forbid the sys - the situation arises, the religion has given you framework. In a similar way, whatever's in the Quran when it comes to, for example, stoning or flogging someone who committed adultery or fornication, for example, to chop off someone's hand if they, if they committed theft, legal, legal retribution for someone whose, uh, family member was killed.
Azhar (19:00):
These are laws that we believe in because they're commands of the Quran. We will not reject it, we will not deny it. But that doesn't mean we have to actively practice it to be a good Muslim, that we have to impose it. Now, why? Because number one, it's a framework of how a society can be structured, checks and balances. There has to be laws. . Number two is that these laws can only be effective if it, the society is governed by a leader and that the state law is this law. . If it's not, then we don't. Now, how am I saying that? The Quran tells us to fulfill our oaths and our promises. When we come to this country and we make an oath to follow the constitution, by saying we're gonna follow the constitution, uphold the law, that means we must follow what the constitutional law of America is.
Azhar (19:49):
We cannot impose our own. . But if you look at the framework of American civil law and Sharia penal law, you will find the similarity on what is the main goal and objective. For example, if a person. I, I remember back in days in Florida, there was a 1020 life. . You know, if you have a gun, you shoot a gun or if you kill someone, there was those billboards that would tell you 1020 life. . Again, what is the purpose of that is to prevent people from using a gun in violence and committing a crime that would end them, they would end up in jail. Now, that is precautionary measures, right? . The goal is the safety of society. . To make sure our society is safe and stable so that we can prosper as a society. . That's what Texas wants, right? Right.
Azhar (20:38):
We want prosperity. We want us, uh, to grow and to be successful. So if that's what civil law wants from people, that you don't commit crimes to create an uproar and an unrest that people won't be able to become successful, Sharia wants the same. But those laws also, people don't understand the context. Oh, you're gonna chop our hands off. Are you gonna stone us for adultery? Okay, let's talk about that. Why would a person's hand be chopped off under Sharia? And this is the amazing part, George. If I steal $10 worth of something that you possess, my hand will be chopped off under Sharia law. Now people say this is absurd. 10 bucks, uh, like 10 silver coins is like eight bucks 80. My hands are gonna be chopped off for that. It's not about why they'll be chopped up. It's because what you did.
Azhar (21:24):
For example, if I broke into your office door and I came into this office and I broke into the safe and I took even a, you know, $10, my hand will be chopped off because the method in which I created instability and insecurity, because people, when they lock their doors every day and go to work, they should never fear that someone's gonna break into their house. However, if I picked up your electric scooter from the street that you left there and I took off with it, and an Islamic country where this was the law, a judge was to summon me, I may be punished by going to jail, but my hand would not be chopped off. Again, upholding a society that is stable. Similarly, for fornication or adultery, people are really scared about that. Well, how is it possible in Islam that four people can witness the act of adultery - <laugh>.
Azhar (22:10):
Thereby have that person punished? The answer's simple, George. They must commit the act in the open. Do you remember the days back in America? And I remember in Canada, if two people were smooching on a bus or on the street, what would everyone say? Go get a room. Right, right. Go get a room. Right. Like don't do this on the streets here. Right. Don't do this in public. Right. So Islam is not against having sexual relations. Right. But it's a, it's, it's, it's, uh, against people disrupting the peace of the society. So that's where those laws are in their context. However, in America, there is no crime for someone to go and fornicate, for example, or commit adultery. Then these laws would not apply because there's no civil law that would, uh, that we are trying to take over per se. Does that make sense?
Azhar (22:57):
Yeah,
George (22:57):
It does. I still think, you know, when, when you, you know, describe it, it's, it's a bit terrifying to people - Yes. To, to think that, uh, that this could be the penalty for such behavior. . Um, but still, it's within the Muslim community. Yeah. It is not, uh, for people outside of the Muslim community - Sure. That this should be, uh, you know, enforced. So, uh, and, and even so, it's not to be done within the American culture, right? So -
Azhar (23:26):
It cannot be imposed. Right. The Quran makes it very clear, <foreign>. There's no compulsion in religion. . If I go around forcing religion on you, your church, or on America, I've already broken God's command. Yeah. Yeah. So how am I gonna fulfill God's word by breaking his command? Right. That verse in itself is sufficient for people to put their guards down and realize that Muslims cannot, by their faith, take over and impose a religion. Right,
George (23:56):
Because this is an important, an important point to make, I think. So I think to summarize Sharia then, uh, this is not that dissimilar, uh, from Jewish - Yeah. Uh, which is, uh, you know, means a certain way to walk, uh, which is, again, sort of - The path. The
Azhar (24:17):
Path. The path.
George (24:17):
Okay. Uh-huh. Uh, for Jews. And, and, and this regulates their, uh, their diet and, you know, their, uh, their worship and, and, and the way they relate to one another, uh, within their community in order to honor God, in order to follow, uh, the path laid out for them. Similarly, although Christians do not typically have a system of law as such, although Catholics have canon law, uh, nonetheless, we, uh, the earliest Christians were called followers of the way, which is quite interesting, I think. Uh, you know, and, and it's the way of Jesus, in other words. . So in, in this case, uh, our, our path or our way is to try to understand how he lived and to follow in his way. And that sometimes is in conflict with culture. . Uh, we are asked, for instance, uh, to, to, to take our religious positions and to live them out in a wider culture that doesn't always respect them and recognize them as.
George (25:29):
I think sometimes what I'm trying to say is sometimes people think that the American culture is essentially a Christian culture - uh-huh. And that therefore, you know, we don't see any conflict in our faith, and that's actually a problem for us Christians - Sure. Because we should see some conflicts - Yes. In terms of the way we are called to live and the wider, and the wider culture. So for Muslims to have a, a path, a way of living that is sometimes in conflict - Yeah. With our general culture should be something we recognize in our own traditions and respect. Correct. And then figure out how do we live together in, uh, in, in this wider culture. Correct.
Azhar (26:12):
And George, the thing is that when was the, when was it in our world that we had to assimilate or create a uniformity in order for us to live at, in peace? Yes. When we talk about American culture itself, like baseball season is now getting closer to the end, World Series are coming around the corner very soon. The question is, when you go to the ballpark, is it a hot dog? Right. Or is it French fries? Right. Is it cherry pie or pumpkin pie for Thanksgiving? Like when we talk about culture, we will find that even within what we deem the American culture, there are differences. Right. And having those varieties doesn't make us wrong. It makes us better. Right. It makes us more unique that we're able to bring different flavors, different aspects into our life. The, the, the main criticism and the main fear mongering that is dominating in our society today is Muslims are different.
Azhar (27:09):
They're coming to take over and they're coming to impose their different way on us. . All three, if you fact check, are not true. Right. And so yes, will Muslims eat halal meat? . It's chicken. Right. The only difference is it's been raised humanely. . Plumping is only one third or two third of what the normal chicken is. And if you understand what plumping is - uh-huh. Is after a chicken has been killed, they inject saline water to plump it up so it could sell for a bigger price. . Uh, and then of course, uh, it's slaughtered with the name of God. It's a very simple thing. . Now, people may disagree with slaughtering. They may disagree with animals being killed for food. And that's fine. We have vegans, we have vegetarians, but we also have people who are, who keep a balance between the two.
Azhar (27:57):
. Is any of that destructive to the American culture? No, it's not. There are those who love their barbecues. . And there are those who love their cauliflower steak. Right. It's fine. So the thing is that when you look at the diversity within the Christian community, which is in, in conflict in some aspects with the American culture, um, it's not deemed a threat. The only reason they're constantly saying that Islam is deemed a threat is only because they believe Islam is gonna take over. Right. So George, if you were told a Muslim's going to take over, what would be your response? You've met Muslims, you know me and others. Like how would you explain that?
George (28:37):
I mean, it would be difficult for me to imagine it. . Because I mean, um, we, we can't even get any laws passed in Washington DC today because we're so deadlocked. . Uh, in terms of, uh, left and right or, uh, Democrat and Republican. It's, it's really difficult to accomplish anything. So it would only be, it would seem, by violent means, uh, that such a thing could take place. And I do think that there's some, uh, there's some sense, uh, in, of unease in the, the general population that at its root, and we should address this. Yeah. Uh, Islam is a violent religion. . And that, you know, it would be through terrorist actions and through, uh, some sort of, um, acts of violence that, that there would be, you know, some political destabilization that would lead to, you know, something else. I, I mean, it, it's, it's hard to even imagine how that would take place, of course.
George (29:40):
But, but nonetheless, I think that's something we need to address too, right? 100%. So, uh, you know, we, we, we know that the most recent example is Hamas. . Uh, and, uh, clearly they have political ends, but also drawing upon inter. Interpretations of Islam that permit them to see this as divinely sanctioned violence. And so, uh, again, we saw it with Al-Qaeda and we've seen it with ISIS and we've, you know, there are other organizations of, of Muslims around the globe, a very small number, but nonetheless, what has happened of course is this sense of collective guilt that's been imposed upon Muslims for the actions of a few. And we can say that it's unfair and I say it's unfair because I know enough Muslims like you, uh, to recognize that the vast majority of, of Muslims are, uh, you know, condemn this kind of extremist violent, uh, activity.
George (30:47):
But what we hear over and over again, Azhar, and you hear it, is, uh, is that this is the quiet, uh, essence of Islam, uh, that jihad is, uh, commanded - uh-huh. And it's not, it, and, and it's always interpreted as a violent physical struggle, not a spiritual struggle. . Uh, and so I think it's, it's really important for people to hear the truth - uh-huh. About this and understand how much of a divergence from, uh, uh, authentic, uh, Islam this represents.
Azhar (31:30):
Sure. And this is a very beautiful, uh, point because, uh, how can we confidently stand with Muslims and believe that they're not gonna backstab us tomorrow and perpetrate violence in the name of religion because the religion says so? Well, let me backtrack on this a bit. My purpose of coming to America and staying in America, it's been 24 years next month, was solely to combat the mindset and the ideology that has twisted and hijacked my faith. Okay. If not staying in Canada would've been much easier for me - Right. Because there's plentiful mosques there, large Muslim community, and I could've worked anything, plus you get government benefits in Canada. Right, right. You don't get that here. Right. Coming to America with $500 in my pocket, which my mom or dad gave me, both gave me us, right, uh, was to combat exactly that. If you're gonna have, let's, let's break this down.
Azhar (32:27):
If Islam commands jihad, okay, that, there, there are commandments in the Quran that speak about smiding the neck of the infidel, as they say infidel, when that doesn't mean infidel, the Gafer. Um, let's take those laws and put them right here for a second. If the Muslim community two point, two, two points, 2.1 billion, just say, have been commanded to kill non-Muslims, why do we need fractions like Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, et cetera? Good point. It should be a universal thing, right? Right. There should be one ISIS that all of us are ISIS. Right. And we're just constantly killing people. Right. Right? The fact that these fractions exist and they emerged and they became dominant post nine eleven. . Let's look, George, at the pre-9 eleven propaganda. . There are many movies that were released in the '80s and the '90s to the extent showing planes flying into towers.
Azhar (33:27):
Yeah. And Arabs and these barbarians with guns. . A mindset was being built. Now I'm not gonna go into conspiracy theories of Hollywood. I love the fact that this is a free world where everyone can say and do what they want. . And I always tell people that the negative propaganda coming against Muslims is their right. Your right is to respond, not to remain silent. So you got this propaganda building up, then you have nine eleven, then we have Al-Qaeda, we have, uh, Taliban, we have ISIS, we have Hamas. Al-Qaeda. Uh, sorry, let's start with the Taliban. The Taliban was a formation of the United States of America to combat - True. The Russians, right? True. Osama bin Laden was part of that. Right. Osama bin Laden does not represent a speck of Islam. . Because as you read in my book, Sharia is founded on four pillars.
Azhar (34:21):
. The Quran, the Hadith, the words of the prophet. The third is the scholars and their consensus - uh-huh. Or their, their opinion. . He was not a scholar. He was not a learned person in the religion. And even if he was, and he gave a fatwa that the world. And think about this. Iran gave a fatwah or Al-Qaeda gave a Fatwa that we should kill all the infidels. Why do I need a prescription from a doctor? A fatwa is like a prescription when the Quran says, "Go kill everyone." . If the Quran, if God gave the Fatwa, why do I need Osama bin Laden's Fatwa? They talk about ISIS. Who are they? Where are they coming from? Where are they going? It's very interesting and strange. And the violence that they've perpetrated in the Middle East is on almost every Muslim country, except for the one they claim to be their enemy, Israel.
Azhar (35:11):
Now I'm saying there's something very shady there. . That we talk about, for example, Al-Gaida and these Hamas. Not even 8% of Palestine voted Hamas to be their government. Right. And the government of Hamas were formed to counter Yasir Arafat in the PLO. So I'm just telling you the political aspects of these things. The thing is that these groups can never I, uh, be a spokesperson for Islam or representation of Islam when they're so municipal minute in doing things which the larger masses of Muslims are not doing. Are we saying these are the believers and these are all the non-believers? Right, right. What Hamas did in October 7th is against Islam. . It's against Islam and the rules of engagement of war. This was not war, this was criminal act. Yes. But the response was also criminal act. Yes. We have the Hague, we have the International Criminal Court.
Azhar (36:08):
Those people, and I wish Osama bin Lana also was brought to the International Criminal Court, brought to New York City, and we were to try him and find exactly what's behind him. But those days are gone, George. Right. We cannot. Ending with the context of those verses of jihad. The Quran talks about it in chapter seven, sorry, chapter three, chapter eight, chapter nine, chapter 13. There are verses that people like to pick and say, "Your Quran said this. George, we just celebrated the 250th anniversary of America's birth, right? Amazing. We had the World Cup. The world came here. It was just an amazing summer that we just had. What was the 250 year anniversary about? Our independence. How did we gain independence? Did we just sign a paper and say goodbye? There was a war. . And when we talk about our independence, we remind ourselves of the lives that were lost and the struggles that were made in order for us to be free today.
Azhar (37:05):
Right. Now if you go to all those chapters where all those verses are, God is telling us, Allah's telling us the story of what happened during the battle of the trench, the battle of Uhud, the Battle of Buddha, what he instructed the Muslims to do, what happened at the conquest of Mucca. It's a history of what happened then. Right. What they were told to do. And the final thing, George, is that if Muslims are, uh, a violent people and Islam is a violent religion that was spread by the sword, then why did it take 14 years for the first instruction from God come down, which was <foreign>.
Azhar (37:44):
Permission has been granted to those who are being fought against to fight back because you've been transgressed. I see. Yeah. Until then, 13 years of Mecca, if they were persecuted, if they're killed, you could not even say a word. . So when we talk about the picture, let's talk about the big picture. If Islam came in Arabia where people were already killing each other and just created more wars, then it doesn't. It feels a purpose. Right. It came to stop that. It came to stop these things. So - uh-huh. I wish it could be comprehen - like comprehendible for many people and it's self-explanatory, but it's not George. You know why? 'Cause the rhetoric against it has been repeated so long that people believe what they have heard and not what the facts are.
George (38:31):
So in this book, and again, I am the other. The other. . Uh, y- you and, uh, Robert Gary, uh, talk about your differences and, uh, and, and he has a non-religious Jew, but practicing Jew nonetheless. . Uh, raises lots of important questions. . Uh, but it does feel as if the entire book is, uh, uh, putting you in a sense on the defensive, uh, trying to defend Islam, uh, it, it, a- against, uh, typical accusations, uh, many of which we, we've just been talking about. . It, it does occur to me that a lot of us in our religious traditions find ourselves having to do that in our own faiths too. Sure. So, for example, you know, I know. I can't tell you how many times I say to people, "I'm a Baptist, but not that kind." You know? Yeah. Uh, or, you know, "I, I'm a Christian, but I certainly would not have fought for the Confederacy.
George (39:37):
Uh, I'm a, I'm a Christian, but I, I don't believe in white supremacy." . Uh, I, I'm a Christian, but, you know, all those sorts of things, because there are people - uh-huh. Within our faith who have brought shame upon our, our religion, and we find ourselves having to justify the authenticity of our faith over against the worst actors. . You know? Uh, Jews are in deep, uh, discord today - uh-huh. Over what's happening in Israel, of course, and, uh, the response to Hamas and, and, and Gaza and Iran and, and, and the like. And, and they struggle, uh, over, over these matters because, you know, they, they don't want to necessarily say that they agree with Netanyahu or with the settlers and the way they're treating Palestinians. So, uh, they're having to defend, you know, all Jews don't hate Palestinians, all Jews don't, et cetera. Uh, but it does seem as if, uh, there is a greater recognition, at least, that there is an authentic Judaism and an authentic, uh, Christianity that we can all rest easy, that the, the majority of people have that.
George (40:55):
Uh, and, and yet it seems exhausting to the Muslim community, doesn't it, that you have to defend yourself over and over again, uh, when you'd like to live your lives and let those lives then bear witness to, uh, the way, uh, of, of Islam. How does your community, um, sustain itself under that sense of obligation to always defend yourself?
Azhar (41:22):
So two things here, Jewish. First is, uh, I learned, uh, 10 years down from nine eleven that we cannot continue to apologize or explain what someone did in the name of Islam. Right. Because that wasn't Islam. In the same way, I believe the Christian community and the Jewish community never should try to distance itself from what people are projecting on it because the faith stands alone and it shows for itself what it is. But sometimes we fear that someone may perceive us to be like that person or like those people, so we wanna clarify that line. Yeah. That, that trend stops when we're confident that we've distinguished between faith and people who act in its name. . In Islam, the problem that's been in the Muslim community, and I've been doing this like, uh, the. I go around the country educating people on Sharia law, and I do these presentations being corporate in churches and synagogues and universities, not because I'm indoctrinating people, but because I wanna create that distinction where you understand the faith for what it is, so you could distinguish the faith from the people who act in its name or who perpetrate crimes in its name.
Azhar (42:40):
In this book, it seems I'm defending myself against Bob. But realistically, Bob is not just a regular person coming out of nowhere. Right. He, uh, is a seasoned attorney, as you read. He defended a case, uh, for Muslims in prison back in the late '80s, early '90s. He's traveled multiple countries to try to understand what is Islam. And here's where this distinction matters, because even when he went to Gom, Iran, where the Ayatullahs are produced, he couldn't get the answers from there that he wanted, from Istanbul, from the UAE and the Sheikhzai mosque. He went desperately looking. So when he confronted me, he came with substance that, look, no one's answered these questions for me, and this is my problem, and I framed my understanding of Islam on this premise. Yeah. When I was able to explain it to him, he came across abrupt and, uh, rude at times because it wasn't what he heard elsewhere.
Azhar (43:37):
. But the reason why he never heard the same thing elsewhere was because everyone was trying to explain Islam from the lens of people. I'm trying to explain Islam from the lens of the faith. . So the Muslim community over the last 25 years, we've constantly followed the myth of the ostrich who puts its head in the ground hoping that the lion will run by and not see it. All the while, the lion is sharpening his knife and fork, got the salt and pepper and the seasoning, ready to eat this ostrich. We have to rise and start speaking and be confident and not explain the Taliban and ISIS and Al-Qaeda and Hamas, but represent as we are in this country. Muslims are running health clinics for free, food pantries, the services, the charity. It's, it's evident what the Muslims are doing, but when it comes to the faith, Muslims are not able to articulate it with a fashion that they don't have to say, "No, but Al-Qaeda does that and we don't do that." People don't wanna know who we're not.
Azhar (44:35):
They want to know who we are. And that's aligned with the faith and identity. We're lacking in that.
George (44:40):
I think this is a really good place for us to end the conversation is, and it is a reminder maybe to all of us that in the midst of these times, the most important thing for us in dealing with one another is to practice our own faith and to know our own faith well enough that we do not fear the other. Sure. That, that we can then respect someone else's faith at the same time. Uh, and our reactions, uh, are really about who we are, not so much about who someone else is. And so, uh, as we, as we conclude this, uh, I wanna thank you for coming and answering difficult questions and dealing with this moment, uh, and saying to you that I think a lot of people who will be watching this are grateful for you, for what you're doing. Uh, we, we wanna say to you that we believe that Muslims belong in America.
George (45:38):
Thank you. And that we want to be part of, uh, a future in which pluralism really becomes what we, uh, have hoped it would be and is currently not. Uh, that we can dispel some of this discrimination and hatred and we can do it with love that comes from our own tradition and, and, and really recognizes, uh, the deep humanity that we share.
Azhar (46:07):
I appreciate that, George, and that's why we wrote the book entitled it, I Am the Other. . We try to other people - uh-huh. Forgetting that we may stand out differently. Yes. And actions speak louder than words. . If all of us, Hindus, Christians, Jews, Muslims, go back to living the lifestyle - uh-huh. That they profess to believe in and live by, we would never have these problems. Right. And let's not fear what we deem is imminent or may happen. . Let us acknowledge the reality of where we are today so that those fears will dispel themselves. Thank you. No one is coming in this country to take it over. This country is one of the greatest countries in the world for the longest time, for the sole reason that we are the melting pot. . It's for people of all backgrounds, all ethnicities and faiths, and all abilities come here and make dreams happen.
Azhar (47:00):
I remember when I was a kid in school, George, there was something called the stone soup. There was a story of a kid who wanted to make soup, but he only had a pot and a fire and a stone. And people are passing by and they're saying celery. I, I'm making soup, but I need celery. I need carrots. I need this. Ultimately, everyone brought something and they made soup together. America is America today because we made the soup together and we drank the soup together and we enjoyed it together. Let's not start ripping the ingredients out of the soup - Thank you. Because we'll be left with water. Beautiful. We're a beautiful country. We're a beautiful people. Let's stay united, let's stay connected. And I thank you and your community for being there for us all the time. And I pray that God blesses all of you and continues to keep our hearts aligned and together.
George (47:44):
Amen. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to have you with us. Thank you, George. And for those of you who've been listening in, uh, continue to pray, uh, that we learn better from within each of our traditions, to love our neighbors ourselves, to pray for and defend, uh, those who are most vulnerable at any given time. That's true. And, uh, until next time, keep the faith.