How Dissent Can Save Us: Nancy Kasten on Faith and Resistance
What does it take to turn ordinary people into dissenters?
In this conversation, George Mason sits down with his Faith Commons co-founder Rabbi Nancy Kasten to kick off Faithful Dissent, a new series featuring people who never expected to find themselves at a vigil or a protest but have been activated by this political moment. Nancy argues that nonviolent movements against authoritarian rule have always depended on average citizens refusing to comply, and she and George trace how their own religious traditions moved away from that legacy once they became custodians of the status quo rather than critics of it.
They talk about what happens when injustice gets close enough to touch, when a neighbor's housekeeper or longtime lawn crew member is suddenly gone, and why that proximity does more to move people than any headline can. The episode closes with George invoking Martin Niemöller's famous warning about the cost of silence, setting the tone for a series built around the conviction that faith should form people for resistance, not conformity.
Rabbi Nancy Kasten co-leads Faith Commons with Rev. Dr. George Mason, working at the intersection of interfaith relationships, immigration advocacy, and civic engagement in Dallas-Fort Worth.
Watch the video, here.
George (00:31):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I am delighted to welcome back to the program, my partner at Faith Commons, Rabbi Nancy Kasten. Nancy.
Nancy (00:47):
Great, great to be back.
George (00:48):
Thank you so much. Well, and it is being back in good God because we've been on hiatus for some months, and so, , it's fun to restart this effort and these conversations. And in fact, , our conversation, , is going to kick off a series of conversations with, , everyday people, ordinary people who have been activated in this moment in life for what we're calling faithful dissent. And Nancy, , you've just written a column for our Faith Commons newsletter that's titled How Dissent Can Save Us. <laugh> It's a provocative title. You wanna tease that out for us?
Nancy (01:33):
Well, I think if we look historically, we see that, um, the only way that dictatorships and tyranny and, um, you know, authoritarian regimes have been overthrown nonviolently -. Has been through the coming together of average people who will not comply with, , what is being told are the new rules. And, you know, we're in a situation here in, in the United States right now where these new rules are destroying our lives, destroying people's homes and health and families and our future. So, um, so we need to come together and put our foot down.
George (02:23):
Well, I think that people who watch Good God, who follow faith commons, , probably generally don't need much explanation for what you just said. <laugh> They, they pretty much say, "Yeah, that's exactly the way I feel. It's the way I see things." , but when we talk about authoritarianism and we talk about how these sort of new rules are destroying our lives, , some people might say, "Well, you know, s- somebody won a fair election and it's, , an exercise of power with those who have, , prevailed in the political process." , but there's something different about the way this administration is exercising power that moves it from the use of institutions for, , according to the rule of law and to defend individual rights and those sorts of things to a kind of, , intrusion or disregard for common norms and for, , our democratic principles.
George (03:30):
What would be some examples that you would give to people when they say, "Well, what's authoritarianism that we're experiencing?"
Nancy (03:38):
Yeah, I think we have a lot of examples, um, beginning with, , the undermining or the disempowerment of two of the branches of government. Um, the judicial branch and the legislative branch -. , who have been t- totally made subservient to the executive branch. So now that the Department of Justice is clearly, um, under the rule of somebody who is completely in line with whatever President Trump wants to do -. Um, and, and, and what he wants to do is, you know, make Congress in, , inconsequential. Yes. Declaring war, changing rules about immigration, , about funding for different things. Overriding congressional decisions. Um -
George (04:27):
And even defying judicial decisions. Correct. , which I think is, has always been a vulnerability in our system. , there's a, you know, a, an apocryphal story about a Supreme Court justice who worried about, you know, how they would enforce their, , their rules, , their, their decisions, as a matter of fact. But, um, but yeah, so I think we witness in the work that we do, , a, a lot of, , of this disdain for what we have known as, , the constitutional America and our protections for ordinary people. Whether it's in immigration, for instance, that we're witnessing a great deal of, religious liberty, and our, um, Muslim neighbors really being, , targeted right now in, in lots of ways. The institutions of public education and, , things like that. So, um, we, we really have had an erosion of our, , civil society, , and, , a- and the, , the, the grasping of power for, for some over against the many, , and the profiting of some over against the many, right?
Nancy (05:53):
I guess so, although it still puzzles me because I don't know. I know it's, I know that many people are profiting financially. But it is at the expense of our entire healthcare system, our entire education system, our entire, um, you know, ability to understand the world and what is happening to us. I don't understand how money can overcome the need for clean drinking water, the need for, , people to be doing a lot of different jobs in order to make the lives of these people with unlimited wealth comfortable. Um, I don't, I don't really understand that.
George (06:37):
Well, um, remember, Amos, the, the prophet. <laugh>
Nancy (06:41):
And - Not personally, although you might think so, but yeah.
George (06:44):
<laugh> And, and there is a passage in the New Testament, I'm gonna quote some Christian scripture to you, which is, "The love of money is the root of all evil." And we are, I think, seeing some of that happen, , in, in this moment where, , the disparity between rich and poor has grown so dramatically. And so this, this idea that you marvel at that we're, we see the vulnerabilities of, and, and the consequences of this with healthcare and, and, and other things, um, it seems by design, Nancy.
Nancy (07:25):
And that's why I think the idea of dissent right now is so important -. Because, you know, there are. The people who are suffering the most from this -. Are raising their voices. And they have been disempowered -. Through law and through suppression. And so dissent means we have to start, you know, supporting those people and groups who, you know, may have seemed to us to be countercultural or threatening the American way of life. Now we need to see that, in fact, those are the people who we need to partner with in order to, um, change direction in this country for all of us.
George (08:09):
Now, both in your Jewish tradition and in my Baptist tradition, we have rich tradition of descent. Um, but, and, and we'll get back to that a little bit and sort of name some of those ways that that happened. But I would say that at least certainly in my Baptist world, when we became a, , no longer a minority voice in early America, but a dominant presence in religious life, especially in the South, um, we became custodians of the status quo. , and dissent was viewed as un-American, as disloyal, as unpatriotic. , people in our pews would, um, be aghast at the idea that we would, as people of faith, be critical of our nation, apart from, you know, political conversations that took place outside of, you know, our, our communities of faith. , how, how did this happen to us where we became, , you know, really chaplains to, , prevailing culture instead of, , people who had a sense of dissent being a, a high value in our religious tradition?
Nancy (09:40):
Well, I, you know, I'm not sure that the majority ever participated in dissent. Okay. It was always the minority. Yeah. Right? Yeah, fair enough. I mean, those prophets were not particularly popular. <laugh> No,
George (09:54):
That's, that's exactly right. Very true.
Nancy (09:56):
But I do think that once, you know, once people start feeling the pain of, um, of the abdicatio n of one's values - They begin to see that, you know, the, the status quo has been led astray. Yes. I mean, you think about what happened in the McCarthy era - And how finally, you know, some of the senators - Yes. Objected. Finally. You - Said, you know, "Have you no decency?" Well, I don't think we have any decency left - In Congress right now. But maybe something is going to happen where, um, we will bring back decency, humanity -. Um, caring and values, you know, human values into our public square and our country's, um, elected offices.
George (10:56):
I, I think you're pointing to something positive about the nature of dissent, and that is, it's not just about speaking up against something, but you speak against something because you're actually for something else. And you mentioned values, you know? , it is impossible for some of us to tolerate the co-opting of our religious traditions by people who, , would, would denigrate their fellow human beings, would fail to see the image of God in them, or their neighborliness, when we are clearly commanded that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. And, and, and especially in the Hebrew scriptures, it, it goes beyond just a generic command. It's, you must treat the foreigner among you as if one of your own, right?
Nancy (12:01):
Yes, and I think that everything has become relative and people will, you know, claim you can't treat every stranger -. As, as your own, and that, you know, you have to put yourselves first -. And you have to put your tribe first. And, , I believe that's not true, you know? , But, um, there are plenty of people who will use that as a reason to continue to operate counter to their own values. And I do think that takes an emotional toll, , a psychological toll. I think people, you know, you look at the rate of suicide, you look at the rate of mental illness, you look at the, you know, these are, these are the consequences of living a falsehood. Yes. You're living under a, a false, um, presumption.
George (12:48):
So I, I, I think that in, in your piece, in your newsletter piece, you make the point that faith communities can be part of forming people for dissent and resistance. And how they function to do that is important. And it, it occurred to me as I was reading that, that, you know, one of the reasons we're in the shape we are is because our faith communities have an alternative story to tell to the, to the narrative that we're seeing in our, our culture right now and, and, and our political life. And if people are not engaged in their religious traditions, to have, to be formed by that alternative story, they have no reason to dissent, right? It, it becomes, it, it becomes difficult for them to make, to voice something when they're not clear about who they are. So -
Nancy (13:48):
Yes. And I think in this country, um, some faith communities have become completely identified with certain part, with one party or the other. Yes. So you see the people on the farthest edges of either, you know, in, you know, Republican or Democratic Party, and they are perfectly happy to talk about, um, government, politics - Candidates, right? They wanna talk about that. And they do very openly, even before we undermined all of the, um, laws that was, were supposed to, um, make that illegal. Yes. All the congregations in the middle who want to, you know, be nonpartisan -. To include people from both political parties -. Have steered away from having those conversations - Yes. Because they, everything has become - Polarized. Associated with one party or the other. Now we see the splintering within parties, especially the, the Democratic Party. I mean, the Republican party is sort of falling into, you know, but I, I do think that it's a certain point that's, that is exactly where our faith communities have to come and say, "You know what?
Nancy (15:04):
We're not partisan." "We are political. We are not partisan." ,
George (15:09):
That's right. It's very easy for people watching us to say, "Oh, you're just trying to put a faith spin on the Democratic Party." You know? But we are critical of Democratic Party.
Nancy (15:20):
Eating people is not a democratic issue, Right?
George (15:22):
This is, this is the issue, right? You know, I mean, the Democratic Party, , is, is not, , , the agent of the reign of God in the world. It is, , it, it is susceptible to greed and self-interest and, , dehumanization just as, as, as any other party might be. Yeah. Okay. So one of the things that we are seeing and that we're going to celebrate in this series of Good God is that there are people who never imagined themselves going to a vigil, um, protesting, , a, a policy, showing up at meetings, writing op-eds, , becoming engaged, , in the work of descent. Um, this is. You and I are professional religionists <laugh> with a sense and, and, and, you know, we, we feel a sense of calling about this, right? And, but it, but it's not that the people should delegate this to us.
George (16:37):
It's that we should help, , everyone else find their voice, right? And so can you give some examples of, of how you see people rising up, finding their place among us in this dissenting tradition?
Nancy (16:54):
I don't think it matters if you're ordained or not ordained or, you know, but I, I, honestly, I think the more proximate you get to the impact -. Of these policies -. The more intolerant you are of them. Yes. And the more willing you are to take a stand. Yes. So if you are standing outside of that field office and seeing the vans going in and, you know, and, and seeing the, um, plumbers going in and out because the, the s- septic system isn't working and they don't have enough, you know, running water or -
George (17:35):
Because the building was not designed to be a detention center.
Nancy (17:38):
Or you're standing at the field office at the tent and you s - and you see families who, um, you know, don't know why their loved one has been detained because they came for a, an appointment that they were called to come for that - Yes. They've come for a million other times. Yes. And they've been detained. And you see what happens to that family. Or you, um, have a, I mean, my housekeepers -. Are going back to Venezuela. I mean, , they are s - they are choosing, um, voluntary departure because they don't wanna take the risk that one of the parents will be detained -. And the family will be separated. And this is becoming more closer and closer to us, right? Yes. So we go to the field office, but now I'm getting calls from people who say, "My housekeeper was detained," or, "My, you know, my lawn, the person who's taking care of my lawn for 15 years was detained." Or this or that.
Nancy (18:38):
And I think. And, and so that's when somebody becomes activated.
George (18:44):
When it becomes personal to them. And, you know, we, we would like, I think, to believe that people would be able to see that, and maybe even if it didn't touch them personally, say, "My neighbor is suffering. I therefore must care." But you're The, the closer you get to it, the more, , important that is, which leads me to, as we conclude, um, a, a remembrance of the German Luther- Lutheran pastor, , Martin Nemoller. So, , although he used versions of this many times in, in extended ways, this version of his statement, , is at the Holocaust Museum in, um, the US Holocaust Museum in Washington. And, , Martin Ne Mueller was a German Lutheran pastor who initially supported the Nazis and had regrets before long and became a vocal critic. But this is what he said. First, they came for the socialists.
George (19:53):
And I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists. And I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews. And I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
George (20:19):
This is what we're trying to say. Everyone, sooner or later, will be touched by this. And putting yourself in proximity to this pain and suffering in our con - in our, in our society right now will help raise your voice and put you in solidarity with others and will change things.
Nancy (20:45):
Yes. And bring a lot of comfort along the way, and even joy, because seeing people coming together to help one another is very, very, um, affirming.
George (20:57):
Something we know something about. And it is a joy to work with you, Nance. And, , to share life with these, , burgeoning dissenters all over, over Dallas. Come and join us, and join us for more episodes of Good God to come until next time. Keep the faith.