Faithful Dissent: John Putnam on Tracking ICE Flights Out of Dallas
Every time a deportation flight lands at Dallas Love Field, John Putnam is there watching. In this conversation, he tells George Mason how a campaign to stop Avelo Airlines from running ICE flights led him and a small coalition of neighbors to start tracking ICE operations through Love Field, where flights have jumped from 15 in 2024 to 178 so far this year. John and George discuss the racial disparities in who is being detained, the case of pregnant women shackled and moved across state lines, and why John believes resistance is not the work of extraordinary people but of ordinary ones who simply refuse to look away.
John Putnam is a therapist by profession and a co-founder of the No Love for ICE Air coalition, a group of neighbors, labor organizers, and faith leaders documenting and resisting ICE deportation flights out of Dallas.
Watch the video, here.
JOHN PUTNAM TRANSCRIPT
George (00:00):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and I am delighted for us to continue a series of conversations on faithful dissent. And today, we welcome John Putnam. John? Thank you, George. Thank you so much for being with
John (00:18):
Us. Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
George (00:20):
Yeah. Well, John and I have, uh, brushed up against each other in the community because, uh, there's been a great deal happening, especially in the immigration space, uh, because of the role of the Department of Homeland Security and, uh, immigration customs enforcement - Yeah. Uh, ICE and what they have been doing. We've, uh, had, uh, press conferences and rallies and vigils and accompaniments at the ICE field office. Um, but you have found a special place to be and a special cause in all of this at Dallas Love Field. Yeah. So tell us about that. What sparked your interest in that and where, what's happening there that got you, uh, interested? Yeah,
John (01:06):
Absolutely. So we, um, I guess, I guess I'll start with the Avello campaign, which was a national campaign to get Avelo Airlines to stop working with ICE.
George (01:16):
Right. And this is a private, small airline - Yeah. Uh, Avela that was doing ice flights for deportations and the like, right?
John (01:25):
Yeah, a- absolutely. And so, um, there was a, a group of us, um Democratic Socialists of America, a few others, um, that kind of worked together, um, on, uh, stopping Avelo and from working with ICE. And that wrapped up in January. It was a successful campaign. It was really awesome. Mm-hmm. And then, um, a couple, like, we started sort of asking ourselves, okay, well, where are ICE flights happening in North Texas? 'Cause we knew that the New York Times had reported that in 2025 there were over 100 ICE flights. Um, and we later learned that it was actually 159 in 2025.
George (02:00):
Out of Dallas.
John (02:01):
Out of Dallas, up from just 15 in 2024. Wow. So they've been escalating. Um, we're now at 178 this year, unfortunately. But basically, uh, we, um, we started kind of turning our attention towards like what airports, um, are they at? We weren't really getting anywhere. Um, and then doing ICE watch with all movie Miento, um, somebody, a friend of mine, Pam, um, you know, followed a vehicle over to Love Field and what it was like, um, just this plane and, uh, them moving people and putting them in shackles. And we were like, "Oh my gosh, this is an ice flight." Um, and so we actually, uh, her and I, um, went and followed that vehicle back to Prairie Land. Mm-hmm. And that was beginning of March, first half of March. Um, and then it was like, "Okay, now we know where they are. We need to figure out how to track them." So we went back to that Avello group.
George (03:00):
Let me, let me stop you there - Yeah. For just a moment because we're using, uh, terms that everyone will fully understand. So Prairie Land is a detention facility, a very large detention facility where - Yeah. Uh, people with various status - Yeah. Uh, as immigrants, but not citizens are sent -
John (03:24):
Yeah, detained.
George (03:25):
Detained before being deported, essentially.
John (03:29):
Yes. Um, or just before being moved around. 'Cause as we learned, ICE will move somebody around to six or seven states. Gee. Um, which is, you know, a huge waste of taxpayer money and also just very cruel. The idea is to separate them from family and loved ones. But yeah, so, so we, you know, confirmed, okay, this is an ICE vehicle. These are detained, you know, immigrants. <laugh> I mean, there have been some cases of ICE, you know, detaining US citizens and - Yes. Even deporting US citizens, so, but mostly immigrants. And, um, we then went to that Avello group and was like, "Hey, can anybody tell us where this plane came from, where it's going, what's going on?" And we found, uh, one of, somebody in that group, my friend Laney, um, was like, "Yeah, I can tell you all that information." And then it was like, "Great, can we kind of track this moving forward?" And she was like, "Yeah, let's, let's keep, you know, doing this." And so she started tracking and then I started, um, and a couple others started going out to the airport and, you know, confirming when ICE was there, you know, based on these flights that she was tracking.
John (04:39):
And so that took a couple months, and then we started to, um, kind of throw around the idea of a campaign, um, to basically. It was, it was. The pitch that I gave everybody was, I don't know if this is a winnable campaign. We actually had a lot of people telling us, like, this is gonna be a really hard one to win. And I kinda said, like, I don't really care because I think we have to take a swing at this for the, our neighbors who are on these flights.
George (05:04):
Okay, so this is a really important point I want people to get. Yeah. Because, John, I think a lot of people see what's going on in our country, and they have a sense of being, um, overwhelmed by the bigness of the machinery - Yes. The politics, the money, the, you know, uh, uh, everything going on. And, and they, they sit in front of their TV, they may be disturbed by this, but they can't imagine that anything they might do could change things. Yeah. And when people get, um, hopeless - Yeah. When they get, they lose their sense of, of agency, but I think you're redefining success here, not as we know that we will ultimately change something - Yeah. But we have to stand in solidarity with our neighbors because that's who we are or we are changed by this, right? Yeah.
John (06:07):
No, absolutely. It's, you know, I think, I think it is important when we're talking about where we put our energy. I think winnability is so important. Mm-hmm. Um, because you wanna put your energy into things. Sure. But there are just some injustices that are so big that it's like, no, we have to - uh-huh. Um, we have to say something. Right. We have to stand up. Right. We, we have to go against the machine - Yes. This large machine, right? That feels very unstoppable. Um, but we're also at a point, you know, one of the things that I kinda think about is we're at a point the first time ever that abolished ICE is polling over 50%. Right. That just happened in January this year. Right. Um, and unfortunately it took, it took ICE murdering people in the streets, right? Yes. Like, you know, in, in Minnesota and now they've done so again in Texas and Maine this month, or the last month.
John (06:56):
But, you know, like, I think it's, like, will we get ICE kicked out of the LOVE field this year? Probably not. You know, there's, there's a whole lot. Um, but, but are we, you know, are we joining in a chorus of Americans standing up and saying, "I don't want this to continue happening." Right. And, and, and adding to, you know, um, what they're seeing in the streets. The thing with, um, the thing with these flights is this is the only time that you actually see what's going on in detention. Right. Right? Because when they're, um, in these facilities, I mean, they're not even letting Congress people - Right. Visit, you know, doing, um, unexpected checks, which legally they're supposed to do.
George (07:39):
They're Supposed to be able to do. Um,
John (07:40):
So you, you really, you know, like, we, we're hearing a little bit about what's happening in these facilities, um, but we're not able to, like, always see that. And this is, like, when they move people, um, we're actually being able to see what conditions are like and how they're treating people in, um, in detention. And it is, it's really horrifying.
George (07:59):
So for, for, for, uh, w - people don't understand how you see them, uh, <laugh> there's actually a s - a staging area at Love Field that was built - Yeah. So that people could come see the flights come and go, right? Originally. Yeah. Just, uh, because it would be a hospitable community sort of thing to do. And now we're able to use the, this, this area, the, uh, oversight area to observe the vans that come - Yeah. And the people that are shackled and coming off and being loaded onto these planes, which is taking place, of course, not in the Southwest Airline area, but in the - Yeah. The private aviation area,
John (08:41):
Right? Yeah. So, so absolutely, that's a huge part of this story. Um, what, uh, what happened was when they started building this observation area last year, ICE moved from one fixed-based operator, Signature Aviation, to another Atlantic. And a fixed base operator is. So if you go to, like, Southwest, you're gonna, you know, enter, um, their terminals and you're gonna go down the jet bridge and enter the plane through the gates, all those things. Fixed base operators are for people that have more money or for businesses. Um, a lot of sports teams use them, right? So they're, um, you know, where private jets and business jets fly into. And fixed base operators will do things like restock the materials on those planes, um, refuel, clean, um, things like that. And they also give runway access, and they give airport access as well. Mm-hmm. Um, so basically, ICE, when they started building this observation area, ICE moved to Atlantic Aviation, which is headquartered in Plano, Texas, is something we always like to point out, um, because it was a lot more private.
John (09:42):
It was a further away from the aircraft observation area. We started protesting, so CLEAR, um, w - incredibly, uh, hosted us last, or in June to do a press conference, um, at the Cathedral of Hope. And then we had three protests here in Dallas, um, two, well, two in Dallas and one in Plano at the Atlantic Aviation National Headquarters. We also were joined by folks in Las Vegas and in St. Augustine, Florida - uh-huh. Um, which is really incredible. And after that, uh, they, ICE took three days off of flights, and then, um, the next plane that came in that Tuesday came into Signature Aviation, and it is right next to this aircraft observation area. Now, like, again, kind of going back to, you know, what's, um, what's the significance of doing that? I mean, anytime we can get ICE to do less flights, that's a win.
John (10:34):
Sure. Um, you know, even if it's not our ultimate goal of the doing no flights. Right. But now also, there is that exposure. People can see what's happening, and people are horrified. You know, people will ask us, "Oh, why is your camera pointed over this way? You know, the planes are over here, your camera's over here. Is that a sports team?" We go, "No, that's an ICE flight," and they're horrified at, you know, at what's happening. Right. Um, but then we're able to have those conversations and, um, you know, inform people what's going on. And it's, it's sad. You know, we, we obviously don't want it, but that's the type of thing that, um, when communities are informed and when they're engaged, they're able to push back and do things about it. And that's something that we hope. So
George (11:16):
I think again, you know, earlier you said that it, that it's polling, uh, a majority of people want to abolish ICE, which is quite extraordinary. Abolish ICE is not the same as Abolish the Police was a few years ago. Yeah. Uh, it, it, ICE is not a, a, an institution that has always existed. It came into existence after nine eleven and has expanded dramatically. And it's operating without judicial warrants. Yep. Only their own administrative warrants, which have no oversight, but it's the fox in the henhouse sort of - Yep. Sort of operation. And so the violation of civil liberties, the violation of, of, of, of public space that, uh, of traditional norms of - Yeah. Uh, of, of our life together, they are being given extraordinary latitude - Yeah. To operate in ways that we would not tolerate - Absolutely. Any government officials e- except in this immigration enforcement time.
George (12:23):
And they're able to use violence in ways that we would not permit, uh - Yeah. And, and not being held accountable for it. We now know that they are, are spending $30.9 million on electric gloves.
John (12:38):
Shock gloves, yeah.
George (12:39):
Shock gloves. Uh, uh, I mean, this is extraordinary, uh, being committed against our neighbors. And so when we see them going, uh, on these planes, what we're, what we're saying here is, how can we disrupt this? Yeah. How can dissent function in a way that would call on the conscience of Atlantic aviation or signature aviation because we know that what ICE is doing is technically legal - Yep. Uh, by current definition - Yeah. At least. And so we, we, we can't hold them accountable for that in a sense, even if we don't like what they're doing, but that doesn't mean everybody has to profit by it or participate in it, right?
John (13:22):
Yeah, absolutely. And, um, no, you, you really, uh, you really nailed it with that. Uh, this is something that, like, I think really should be bipartisan - uh-huh. Um, in the sense that you're right, it's, we're not, you know, saying there's not gonna be a laws, there's not gonna be law enforcement, right? Like ICE actually, and this is a conservative argument against ICE, but ICE actually isn't, um, helping us, uh, helping us solve crimes or punish people who have committed crimes. Um, in fact, we know that there, um, have been less human trafficking, less drug trafficking, uh, charges that are being brought in federal courts because there's this emphasis on going after, um, people who have overstayed their visa. Right. Or, um, you know, have made an asylum claim, which is a legal process. Right. When people say, like, "Oh, well, they're illegal." No, they're not.
John (14:15):
They've literally made a legal process and they were allowed to stay here during that legal process. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, like, the argument that, um, if you're conservative, you, you actually don't need ICE to go after crimes because you could use the DEA to go after drug trafficking, the FBI and the CIA to go after human trafficking and terrorism, right? Like, you actually don't need a separate agency enforcing immigration to go after all these terrible criminals, right? Right. If that's your stated goal. Um, there is no reason. And in fact, we know that, uh, immigrants commit less crimes th - both documented and undocumented than US citizens do. Yeah. Um, so it really does, it kind of begs, you know, the question, why is there, um, and the, like, I mean, I personally think there's a lot of racism, right? Because I can tell you that the people that we're seeing on these flights, um, I have seen very few white or even black, uh, people on these flights.
John (15:13):
Yeah. It has entirely been people who appear to be brown or Latino.
George (15:18):
Right. And, you know, I mean, if you want some, uh, justification for this claim of racism - Yeah. All you have to do is consider that since October, uh, there have been 6,665 refugees allowed into this country. A very small number. Yeah. They had set the limit at 7,500 for the year. Of that number, 6,662 of them were white Afrikaners from South Africa. Mm-hmm. Three of them were from Afghanistan. Yep. Now, that ought to tell you something about that. Given that hundreds of thousands of people are waiting in third countries out there, having passed through all the refugee vetting process and are waiting to be admitted, but are not allowed to do so. But white South Africans have been expedited - Yep. Into this country. And so what we really are seeing, as John, you've pointed out, is the, the targeting of brown people, uh, in, in a way that, uh, i- is extraordinary in our, in, in our, in our recent history.
George (16:43):
Now, we know that there was the Chinese Exclusionary Act, uh, in, in 1882, I think it was. Yeah. Um, and so there have been moments in American history where we've targeted very specific groups and said, "We're not really wanted here." Uh, but, uh, we, we are in that place right now, but we are using the, we are using the excuse that we're going after the worst of the worst. Yeah. Uh, and the, the, the hardened criminals who are doing violent things in our na - but we know that ISIS own statistics say that about 72% of those that are being detained and, and deported have zero criminal record. Yeah. So, you know, what is it? You know, let's tell the truth about these things, right?
John (17:29):
Yeah, absolutely. It is, you know, like I said, we're at the airport. We are seeing largely Latino and brown people. Um, and our hi - our nation does have a history. It's, it's interesting. One of those conversations that I often have with folks is, um, you know, people say like, "This isn't my country or this isn't the America I know." But also like, you know, black, brown and Asian people, indigenous people have been telling us for years and years, this is the America that they do know. Yeah. Um, and when we're talking about like the Chinese Exclusion Act, Japanese internment - Right. The boarding schools for Native Americans, right? There you go. Um, chattel slavery, right? Right. Like we have all these examples of this is actually historically who we are. However, you know, I think that when we talk about like what is faithful patriotism maybe is not, um, it's definitely not Christian nationalism.
John (18:19):
Right. Um, it's, it's not, you know, this idea that we have to have this perfect history or this perfect - uh-huh. Um, you know, like that we've done everything right. We, we haven't. We can't go back in time and change that. What we can do is change what we do moving forward. Um, and I think that there are, you know, a lot of people, um, that are coming out and saying, "No, we don't want this." And that's why the polling has changed. It's why there are so many people dissenting in various ways. Right. Um, doing ICE watch all over the country, going down to the courthouse or the field office here in Dallas and providing mutual aid, um, for families, you know, going through this. Um, you know, I, I think maybe the biggest, uh, the biggest sign, the biggest tell that they aren't going after the worst of the worst, um, is right here in Texas in the Dili detention facility.
John (19:05):
Yes. Right? Um, you know, it's, it's children. Right. It's two three-year-old children. Right. And it's like what crime, you know, like, like what crime have they or their parents committed that is so bad that we have to have a child in a cage? Yes. Um, you know, there, there's nothing. There's nothing that I could think of. Mm-hmm. And in fact, one of the ones, one of the stories that I always, um, like to uplift, uh, and I'm still, you know, anybody who will listen to this, anybody who has power to do anything, I would love to talk to, um, which I know like even Congress people don't have a lot of power right now, um, with ICE. But last month, uh, actually about a month ago today, um, July 18th, uh, ICE had canceled their normal flight. We, the normal flight that we see from Dallas is El Paso to Dallas, to Alexandria, uh, Louisiana - Right.
John (19:53):
Or Harlingen, Texas. And ICE had canceled that normal flight that day. I was kind of excited and like, "Great, we don't have to go out." Um, and then, uh, in the evening, a flight popped up for later that night for around 10:30. So go out, um, so go out to the airport. It's dark of night. There are all these families though, um, that are there watching the planes come in, I guess, because, you know, it's so hot in Texas, they're waiting for it to be night and cool down. And I'm hearing two or three different languages other than English being spoken behind me. I turned my camera over to where ICE is, um, it, uh, the plane has landed and already there's some weird things. Like I said, it's in the dark of night. We never see flights at night like that. Um, it was a global crossing flight.
John (20:38):
We normally see Eastern Air and Air Wisconsin, um, planes. And then, uh, one of the things that was weird was that we actually, they didn't put anybody on that flight. They only had people coming off. Um, and it was from Victorville, California, which we normally don't. So, like, I'm s - thinking, like, okay, this is weird. Like, everything about this flight is weird. The first woman comes off and she's shackled like normal. So that's, um, wrists, waist, and ankles. And then there's a chain that connects, um, you know, where they're shackled. So she comes off. Um, that's also, we normally see a lot more men than women. So I was like, okay, it's interesting that a woman's coming off this plane. And then these five women walk down. They all look like they're in their 20s and 30s. Um, and they're in plain clothes. They're all Latina appearing, um, and they're not shackled.
John (21:30):
So the ICE, uh, the ICE AIR handbook actually says that the only exception for shackling, um, the only people that we see being moved, and it's the only time I've ever seen it in Dallas, is for pregnant women. Um, so these are five pregnant women that are being moved. So the flight was Victorville, California to, in Southern California, to Dallas, to El Paso. And they just moved these six women. And I'm thinking to myself, they, they overshot El Paso - Right. By a couple hours, um, an hour on the ground going back, moving personnel around, all four, six women, five of whom are pregnant. That to me was like, like, you know, it's concerning when we see them move 120, 130 people, which is, we have seen. But I, I was almost concerned. I was like, this is a lot of work for these six women.
John (22:21):
Right. Why are you wanting to move these five pregnant women around? These women shouldn't be. I mean, unless they had murdered somebody, <laugh> these women should not be in jail. They should be at home with their family, getting ready to, you know, b- bring a child into this world, right? Um, expand, uh, to grow their family. So they should be with their loved ones. There should be no reason that we're moving them across state borders like that. Right. Um, which is designed, you know, if like you or I were to commit a crime, we would be in a prison wherever, you know, we committed that crime, right? It's not, it's just based on, um, well, you know, where the crime occurred, right? But for them, you know, for immigrants that don't have rights, they're moving people, you know, like I said, five, six, seven times before they ever even deport them.
John (23:08):
The reason why they're doing that is to separate them from their families and lawyers. And I'm thinking like, you know, these women should be with their families right now. And instead we're literally trafficking. I mean, I call it state-sponsored human trafficking. It is, it is trafficking people against their will across state and international borders. The state sponsored part just means that the difference between, you know, some, like, what we kind of think of as the evil henchmen human trafficker doing it and ICE doing it is that our government says you can do this. Right. That's the only difference, but it's the exact same act. So I
George (23:40):
Think people might wanna ask, why do we in Dallas allow this to happen at our city-owned airport?
John (23:49):
Yeah.
George (23:50):
And the, and the answer to this is that the city owns the airport, but it has contracts - Yep. With, uh, Atlantic Aviation and Signature, uh, Aviation. And they are, the city can't tell them what they can do about their business in that respect. Yeah. And then when it comes to ICE-owned or ICE, um, uh, contracted airlines and their flights, there's the federal supremacy clause that kicks in and says that local municipalities cannot override federal, uh, actions.
John (24:31):
Yep.
George (24:31):
But all of those things may be true. It still doesn't make it right.
John (24:37):
No.
George (24:38):
And part of what we're saying in this whole exercise here is let's not hide behind, uh, immoral, uh, uh, laws that allow immoral things to take place - Yeah. In, under our nose, right in our neighborhood, right before us. You know, when, when, when we finally won the Second World War and liberated the concentration camps - Yeah. We realized many of them were placed in ordinary neighborhoods where people were going about their everyday lives all around. Yeah. And, and these people were being gassed and were being starved right in, next door to them. And they just went about their lives. We can't let that
John (25:25):
Happen. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about, I think so often about how we got to this point. Mm-hmm. And I think that we oftentimes have in our head that when evil is being done, it's by some like, like this person is inherently like this evil, horrible person, um, which I don't believe because my theology says that God made everybody good as Desmond Tutu - uh-huh. Archbishop said, um, God, you know, we're made for goodness. Um, and it's, it's not like everybody's these evil brainwashed henchmen type - Right. You know, like I think we, we, our brain kind of goes to these sort of cartoonish characters and, you know, we think of when we talk about like Nazism, for instance, we, we make it out to be like, these were the most evil people ever. And for a lot of it, it was, it was actually just average people who went along with it.
John (26:16):
Right. Right. And that's what, when I see the pilots or I see the LaSalle Corrections Transport, that's the, the guards that, um, are contracted by ICE to move people to the airport from the detention centers. When I see, uh, Signature Aviation employees, I think like evil isn't this like, you know, it, it's, it's, it's subtler than that.
George (26:36):
It's, it's just, I'm doing my job. Yeah. I'm just doing my job.
John (26:40):
And on the flip side, resistance is the same thing. Resistance is not these, this larger than life, you know, larger than life people or characters who, you know, have these grand backstories. Resistance is average people saying, "No, we don't want this." Good, good, good. Um, and average people, you know, like our coalition is very interesting. Um, there's a lot of leftist groups. We have a couple socialist groups. We have some labor groups. Um, we have clear. We have church groups. And I think people would kind of look at that and be like, "That's sort of a weird coalition of people." Right. But at the end of the day, it's just people that are saying, "I'm seeing this injustice and I can't stand that." Right. And I want to, to find a way to fight that. Um, and that's what's been really great about the No Love for Ice Air Coalition that we've created.
John (27:30):
So that's our group that does, um, you know, there's kind of a documenting side to that work. And then we, we have an Instagram account and we go on podcasts like this. Right. We go, you can talk to journalists. We're trying to get this message out there. We, we host protests. Um, and that's really what it's about. It's not like, you know, any, anybody in our group is some larger than life figure. Right.
George (27:51):
I mean, I think people should know you're a, you're a therapist, therapist by tradi - by, uh, profession. Yeah. And I, I mean, you, you're not a professional activist. You, you're, you're a person who cares about this and just does this. You don't get paid for this. This is just you doing this because you care.
John (28:08):
Yeah. And, and I'm joined by a lot of other folks. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, Reverend Eric and - uh-huh. Kim from Clear. Right. Um, my, my friend Laney who does the flight tracking. Right. Um, my friend Ella. There's so many average people that are, yeah, we're, we're just, you know, we're, we're definitely not getting paid for this. <laugh> I think that's always funny when people in the comments are like, "Y'all are paid protestors." And I'm like, "Man, I would love that paycheck." <laugh> Like, send that my way. This is a lot of work for, um -
George (28:37):
Well, if somebody wants to get involved with you, how do they contact you or how do they go online and see what you're up to?
John (28:43):
Yeah. So I think the best way is, um, our Instagram page, Noah4iceAir. Um, so we post every time that there's a flight. Mm-hmm. We will often post footage with that as well, what we're seeing at the airport. Um, and then we also, that's where we're gonna advertise our protests. Um, we are kinda taking a break right now. It's over 100 degrees. Yes, right. Um, in, in Texas for the next week or two. Mm-hmm. So, um, we're taking a little bit of a break. We also just kinda wanna, wanna re - um, go back to the drawing board and kinda see - Sure. What our strategy is. Um, but yeah, I mean, we're, uh, that's, that's the best way. You know, we really need people to come out. And I - Okay. And Dallasites have been coming out. Yeah. And that's what, um, I think we get kind of pegged as, you know, Texas is super conservative, but the resistance is strong here.
John (29:28):
Good. There are a lot of people that are saying what I'm saying, which is that we don't want ice in Dallas. Great.
George (29:33):
Well, John, thank you for all you're doing, and thank you for inspiring us. And if you wanna get involved, uh, check out No Love for Ice on Instagram and, uh, communicate, DM them, and, uh, you'll be able to hook up with them. Uh, join us again, uh, for good God, uh, and other conversations about faithful dissenters. And until next time, keep the faith.