Faithful Dissent: Kim Verriere on Prayer, Protest, and Showing Up
Every Monday morning, Kim Verriere shows up outside the Dallas ICE field office to pray and organize a public vigil, a role she never expected to play. In this conversation, she and George Mason talk about how her conviction that love of neighbor must extend to the marginalized led her from first-time attendee to central organizer, and how prayer and action work together rather than as substitutes for each other. The conversation turns to Kim's work as a spiritual director, where she describes her role as following the movement of the spirit rather than offering advice, and closes with her encouragement to take one small step outside your comfort zone.
Kim Verriere holds an English degree with a minor in religion from Auburn University and a certificate in spiritual direction from SMU Perkins School of Theology. Based in Richardson, Texas, she serves on the board of Spiritual Ministries Institute and the advisory board of Retreat House Spirituality Center, and she founded and led Greater Love Collective, an organization for women, for nine years before stepping away to focus on spiritual direction and retreat leading.
Watch the video, here.
GEORGE (00:00):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we're continuing in our series of podcast conversations on the subject faithful dissent. And one of my favorite dissenters is with us today, Kim Verriere. Thank you for joining us, Kim.
KIM (00:19):
I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me.
GEORGE (00:21):
So, Kim, part of what we're doing here is, uh, we're trying to encourage people who are not professional religious folk who get paid to do this work, people like me,
KIM (00:34):
Right?
GEORGE (00:34):
<laugh> Uh, but, but people who get, as they say, a burr under their saddle, right? There, there, there's a, there's a pebble in their shoe. There's a something that motivates them and they get involved and they start showing up. And that's really your story. You are, uh, I'll tell people more about what you're doing with our, um, our ice vigils and, uh, other kinds of, of work that you're helping us with. But, uh, but for now, I wanna start out with, tell us your story. Tell us, you know, where, where does the motivation to be engaged in, in the work of resistance and dissent and, and, and really in, in trying to, you know, change things for the better for people. Where does that come from in you?
KIM (01:23):
Well, my faith. That's, that's the short answer. Okay. Um, I think, you know, I could go way far back and just say that, um, you know, growing up in church, Baptist - uh-huh. Um, you know, one thing about me is that I love people. Okay. And, uh, that's something that, uh, you know, just was instilled in me by God - uh-huh. Um, from early on. And so that's kind of the thread that carries through is, is love and, um, and that extending to people. And so as far as how I got here, I mean, there's so many twists and turns in the road, but it really all comes down to, um, my love for people and caring.
GEORGE (02:06):
Okay. So I, I wanna say that I think that there are a lot of people who also grew up in church and who say that they love people, right? <laugh> And they stay in the pew and they go home and they don't get involved. Mm. Yeah. They truly believe that they love people and they tend mainly to their family or to, you know, people who are in their close circle. But this is messy work where you're, uh, in solidarity with people that you don't know, that you're, that you're getting proximate to by intention. You're, you're putting yourself into relationships that other people don't take the initiative to do that. Why is that?
KIM (02:50):
Oh gosh. I mean, I don't really know what sets me apart because to me, it's the, um, it is the love for people. To me, if you love people, it has to extend to all.
GEORGE (03:04):
Ah. It has to. Now that's the, that's the thing, right? That's right. Well, I mean, look, I think we have an interesting thing happening within the Christian world in our, in our county right now where some of our political leaders especially, but also some of our religious leaders are saying that when we say love your neighbor as yourself, it starts with love the people closest to you and - Yeah. And it, you know, it, and what they mean by that is first take care of your people, your family, all of that. And, and, and then if, if you have time and, and energy to care for other people beyond that, that's something. But what that often means is a dec - sort of a, a decision about whether someone really is worthy for you to continue to do so. And so you and I both grew up in the church, and I think what I hear you saying is, you know, we have all these people that love to give to missionaries, that love to say, "We want the message of Jesus to go out to people who have never heard it, who are everywhere in the world, but right next door to us, right in our own community.
GEORGE (04:32):
We won't walk across the street to, uh, defend their dignity or their rights. And so I think this is, you know, part of the challenge that we have in our congregations, in our different faith communities. And so I, I think, I just wanna say thank you for bearing witness to this, this truth that's gotten you involved and might inspire other people before our conversation is over.
KIM (05:00):
Yeah. I mean, I think what the difference is to me, the difference is to me that, um, we have to go to the marginalized. Like the loving our neighbor, of course we love those who are in proximity to us that are right here. Our friends, our family, may be our closest neighbors. But if that's where it ends - uh-huh. And we other the other people - Yes. Then, um, then that's not really what we're called to do - uh-huh. As Jesus followers. Right. That is not really the crux of it. The crux of it is look and see who is being left out, look and see who is being hurt. Look and see who the other is - uh-huh. And go to them - Yes. And love them as much as you love yourself. Ah. Like that's what it says. Okay. As much as you love yourself, you have to love other beings.
KIM (05:53):
And I mean, to me that's, that's core, this love for people that I say I love people. It's not just a quip or a personality trait, I don't think. Okay. I think it is absolutely core.
GEORGE (06:04):
So it's a moral imperative that you get from your faith and that - It is. That you are, uh, living by, you know, that this is - Yeah. Yeah. That this is a, a, a kind of com- compelling, uh, instinct that you have because you've been shaped in this way. That's
KIM (06:21):
Right. That's right.
GEORGE (06:22):
So, all right. Let's talk about what you're doing. Okay. So, uh, every Monday morning from 80 to 10 - uh-huh. You are there bright and early, ready to go, organizing us and helping us prepare for what we call, uh, the, uh, clergy-led, but really it's anybody, uh, who can come, uh, prayer vigil. Um, we do pray and we do, uh, protest. And, uh, but tell people more about where it is, why it is, what, why you got involved and how, what your role is in this.
KIM (07:06):
Yeah. So, um, I mean, just backing up to about a year ago - uh-huh. Um, I was in a point in my life where I had some space. And, um, I found out about the vigil that was happening every Monday that clear DFW was doing and just got curious - uh-huh. And decided to come. And, um, one thing led to another and I'm helping here and I'm helping there. And then, and then now I'm kind of, you know, central to it in the sense that I, I kind of bring our gear, uh, most times and, and all that, that kind of thing. I think, um, you know, what's really happening there is, is bearing witness - uh-huh. And the consistency of showing up, I think, week after week - uh-huh. Says to first ourselves, to those who see us, who happen to drive by, to, um, the immigrants who are coming in for their check-in appointments - Right.
KIM (08:08):
To the immigrants who are, um, shackled in the vans that are coming right in front of us going into the ICE facility there. Um, I think it says to them someone cares. Yes. And I think that that makes it worthy beyond belief.
GEORGE (08:28):
So we're talking about the immigration and customs enforcement, um, office, field office - uh-huh. In Dallas. 8101 North Stemmons Freeway.
KIM (08:40):
Mm-hmm.
GEORGE (08:41):
And on the service road, right in the front of the building, we gather, and we spread out on the sidewalk because it is public property. That's right. As a matter of fact, so is the whole ICE facility. It belongs to us because we are the government. And yet, we are shut out from walking onto the premises even. Uh, there, that's a whole other story about the, um, poor exercise of, of, of our legal freedoms, uh, that are taking place in, uh, in, in terms of ICE's work. But nonetheless, we have that opportunity and we take advantage of it every, every, uh, Monday morning. Uh, there are signs that we have. What are some of the signs that, that we hold up?
KIM (09:31):
You know, it's interesting. The signs, um, are just so loving and positive. It is love your neighbor. It is, um, we're praying for our immigrant neighbors. It is, um, uh, human rights have no borders. Right. Um, these are the kind of messages that we're putting out. They're positive - Right. Messages, positive signs. We get honks, we get thumbs up. We get, um, especially, I think for anyone who is an immigrant, when they come by and they see that - Yes. It, it, you know, it brings them a sense of, um, connection and, and this solidarity.
GEORGE (10:10):
Well, and some of them are coming for their appointments and they don't know that the front has been closed off since the shootings - That's right, yeah. Took place last year. Uh, and they have to go around the back and so we have to give them directions. But sometimes they stop to get those directions and talk to us and we actually get to pray with them and they thank us - uh-huh. For being there - uh-huh. And supporting them and it's a touching thing. We also pray when we start, when we gather together, and then when we end, we get, and we share information. Um, but we, we always remember that, uh, we have a sense that prayer does matter. Uh, and, uh, I, I think some people think that that's just making us feel better about ourselves. Um, but it, it also, um, allows us somehow to participate in the mystery of God's work in the world, doesn't it?
KIM (11:08):
For sure. Prayer is powerful. It is not something to dismiss. Um, we can't explain - uh-huh. How and why it works. Right. But we know that it does. And, um, any kind of, uh, prayer that we're offering, whether it's collectively, uh, when we're there together, gathering up and, and the things that we're saying together, um, uh, coming together, um, in our prayers or individually, I think sometimes when we're standing with our signs spread out along the sidewalk, we are praying, um, and we are, we are going internally to bring what's internal, external. And I think that prayer is just so powerful and should not be underestimated.
GEORGE (11:55):
You lnow, the, the, um, the famous rabbi, uh, Abraham Joshua Heschel - uh-huh. During the civil rights era, uh, began to join, uh, those who were marching. And, uh, he talked about, uh, how praying, uh, is not enough. You have to also, uh, be out there. And he said, "When I, when I march, I feel like I'm praying with my feet." Mm. And I, I think that it's not either or. You know, sometimes people think, "Well, you're, you're marching. Why don't you just pray? Or you're, you're praying, why don't you just do something?" Well, it, it, the, the, they are actually two sides of the same coin, aren't they?
KIM (12:42):
They are, but I do think there's a flow. Yeah. So I think, um, you know, showing up to pray or praying at home, whatever you're doing, um, if that prayer is not also having some sort of outward flow in you - Yes. Um, maybe it needs to be to checked, you know, maybe we need to, um, unleash something. Right. Uh, find out what's blocking it, because then the external flow, the things that we do out in the community, to whatever degree that is, then I think also flows back to us and, and it's, and it's this inward outward flow.
GEORGE (13:16):
Right. And, and, and the other side of it is, you know, yes, prayer motivates us to move out or should, but also when you're out there, it can be incredibly draining emotionally and spiritually. Uh, you, you can have this sense of futility and, and pain and being present with people, which means you have to go back into your chamber. That's right. And this is where I wanna lead with this, and that is you actually help us tremendously because you, um, you moderate the, uh, inspirational signal chat for all of us who are involved in this work and consistently give us, uh, you know, prayers and, uh, and poems and things to suggest to us about, about caring for ourselves in the midst of all of this. And this comes partly out of just who you are, but also because you are a trained spiritual director.
KIM (14:13):
I am.
GEORGE (14:13):
So let's talk about that. How did you, uh, decide that that was something you would pursue, uh, education and training and, and all of that?
KIM (14:24):
Yeah. You know, about a decade ago, I, uh, discovered spiritual direction. Growing up in the church and the, the, the tradition I, I did, I didn't know about spiritual direction.
GEORGE (14:37):
Okay. She was a Baptist, so that's part of the reason. And here I am too, right?
KIM (14:41):
That's right. Yeah. I didn't know. Right. And, um, so I got my own spiritual director, just kind of began to understand what this is. And honestly, for me, it was like a coming home to myself. Oh. It was like discovering the thing that I was always made to do, which can sound dramatic, but it is the joy of my life. I, um, uh, joined the, the training program, um, through Perkins School of Theology at SMU and, um, really just, just found myself, found my niche. Um, of course, throughout my life, you know, these are things that I've been doing. I, I naturally connect with people and listen to people, but, um, but now I'm trained to do it.
GEORGE (15:23):
<laugh> Yeah. You know, there's a, I, I. Is it maybe an African proverb about slowing down enough for your soul to catch up with your body? I
KIM (15:31):
Love it. Yes. Right? That's right.
GEORGE (15:32):
And I think, uh, you know, part of what the spiritual life is, is about, uh, about practicing this wholeness. Uh, sin is really about fragmentation. It's about separation, both within ourselves and also from other people and from God, right? So when you are practicing this coming back together, whether it's soul and body or whether it's reconciliation with a person or whether it's a, a kind of renewal of, of connection with God, this is, um, you know, a healing factor that is both personal and social and then spiritual, right?
KIM (16:17):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's really an important thing to be able to tend to your spiritual life. Right. And so spiritual direction is something that I think anybody should make as part of their practice, um, because it just gives you that touch point. You know, like once a month to check in - uh-huh. And to, um, to be heard. But to have someone witness your journey - uh-huh. And be able to reflect it back to you. Right. So that's what. Yeah.
GEORGE (16:46):
So I, I think we should help people distinguish where spiritual direction fits between, say, for instance, um, you know, a, a conversation with your pastor or say, uh, a, you know, a, a sort of, uh, religious, uh, specifically a religious tradition in its, its place, and say therapy. Yeah. Um, counseling, that sort of thing. It's a - uh-huh. It's, it's in a different category. What distinguishes spiritual direction in the way it's carried out?
KIM (17:21):
I'm really glad you asked that. I think it's such a great question. Um, so it is typically one-on-one. Like all of like pastoral counseling - Right. You know, all of these things, therapy. Um, I would say that the difference is when you're going to a pastor for counseling, or even when you're going to a therapist for counseling, you have a problem typically that you are needing to get advice on tools to help you through it. Um, maybe with therapy, you know, there's some kind of mining going, going below to find out the reasons why you might have an issue. And those are very important things to do. With spiritual direction, um, it's not that we. You may bring the same problem into spiritual direction to talk about, but the goal there is to see where the spirit is moving and working.
KIM (18:15):
It is, um, it's soul work more than psychological work. Okay. It is soul work more than biblical understanding. So, um, it's kind. You can come at the same thing, but it's from a different perspective. And, um, the work that is done in those spaces is not from me as your spiritual director, it's from the spirit. And so my role is to just pay attention and to reflect that back. Versus in therapy, you have, um, you know, the insight and wisdom is coming from the therapist and their training. Um, or even in pastoral counseling, something like that, you have the wisdom and the input of a, of a pastor, and those things are important. Um, but this is something a little different.
GEORGE (19:06):
I wanna push more on how different it is. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, this is about finding where the spirit is moving, and that sounds - <laugh>. Sort of like, how do you get a handle on that and what does that mean, right? So what would be some of the things you listen for and you, um, you, you, you mention to the person so that you can have a, a, a keener sense of what's not psychological, but what is about soul?
KIM (19:35):
Sure. And I mean, there is some overlap, of course - Right. Because we are human beings and we are - Right. You know, body, mind, soul, the whole bit. Um, you know, I, I think what the difference is, is the being heard and the reflecting back. So what I say to my directees, I call them directees, we call them directees versus clients. To my directees, I, I say, "I am only ever wanting to point you back to your inner wisdom." For me personally, I believe that that inner wisdom is Holy Spirit. Um, but that's the difference to me is that it's not about external. So what I'm listening for and what I'm, um, watching as, as I'm meeting with my directee is, um, where maybe their soul. And I'm trying to use language. I know that this language feels maybe a little too, um, woo-woo or ethereal for some people.
KIM (20:32):
Um, it's the language that I'm familiar with, but also I like to meet people where they are. So, but, um, I'm just watching. I'm watching for the movements in their interior being. Okay. Okay. In their soul. Right.
GEORGE (20:49):
So, Richard Rohr talks about contemplation and action going together. Yep. And how they are separate things, but they are related and should be. And we, I think we're talking about that a little earlier. Um, Richard Rohr is a Franciscan, um, priest, a friar who, uh, writes a lot about the spiritual life. And so, uh, you've learned a lot from Catholic wisdom and from Episcopal traditions and, uh, that sort of thing. Um, how do you help people in spiritual direction, uh, not simply stay on the inside? When you, you talk about hearing them and trying to point them to their inner wisdom - uh-huh. Uh, that, that could become solipsistic almost, you know, right? Where, where we never get out of ourselves. Yeah. Right? So h - what kinds of leading questions do you ask people to address, uh, how to deal with that inner wisdom?
KIM (22:04):
I love it. Yes. So I would say that what I'm doing in spiritual direction is following. I'm following the lead of the spirit. I'll just say it again. I'm following the lead of the spirit, working in them. So I am. I don't have an agenda to lead them to a particular thing. Right. I don't have an agenda to lead them to a par- particular way of believing or way of being in the world. Right. That's the spirit's job. Okay. So I'm not, I'm not having that agenda, but I will speak for me. And I will say that for me, it is the interior work, the deep, even going into the dark places within me - uh-huh. Facing my own shadow. Doing that deep spiritual work. That just catapults me back out into the world, into action.
GEORGE (22:54):
Right. Yeah. Everything belongs is part of the language of spirituality. Yes. Including the dark side.
KIM (23:02):
That's right.
GEORGE (23:03):
And in fact, getting aware of those dark places in ourselves, uh, then may make us more aware of the darkness in the world, because if we're not in touch with that, then we're afraid, right, of getting engaged in, in that because it, uh, we're not accustomed to how to see that we can actually, uh, still live and thrive and smile and, and, and have a, a joyful life even when we are addressing that, right? So there's a sense of the spiritual life helps us practice for the life of pursuing justice, right?
KIM (23:49):
It does. It is, it is the thing that helps us to, to hold two things together at the same time. Right. And to me, like in these times right now where it is, um, it feels to many of us to be unprecedented, right? Yes. That, that there's so much turmoil. Yes. And to be able to hold that deep despair - Right. The cruelty that we see out there, everything that is, we would label as being dark. Yes. Um, along with the light that is within us. I think that the, that the ability to do that is what then brings us into a maturity that allows us - Right. To begin to take action.
GEORGE (24:29):
Well, and you have taken action. So you not only show up at the vigils - uh-huh. And you not only communicate, uh, your spiritual direction, uh, sort of, uh, insights on the signal chat that we share, um, but, you know, you use your graphic, uh, abilities on the computer and you, uh, you, you pr - you know, present us with ways that we can share on social media and organize people to come and join, uh, events that are taking place and all of that. There's a sense in which you're an example, Kim, I think, for people of, uh, yeah, just take one little step and get out there, but also beware because it just may lead you to keep. The next thing happens after the, the way leads onto way, as Robert Frost said.
KIM (25:17):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't have imagined, uh, a year ago that, that I would be quite as involved as I have become. Right. But it has been a process of, you know, saying yes to that next little thing. You know, that's what I wanna say to people, if I could, is, is, is, you know, the thing that's just that one step out of the comfort zone - Right. That one step that feels just a little - uh-huh. A little more than you might be used to. Um, being faithful to that - uh-huh. Um, you know, that's how the world changes.
GEORGE (25:51):
Right. So faithful is the first word of this series, faithful to send, and faithful can come from faith, but it can also be a way of saying consistent, right? Mm, that's right. Of, of being there consistently and showing up, just showing up, just showing up over and over again. And you keep showing up at a, at, at something that is sponsored by, you mentioned the language clear, right? Yes. So we helped to create this, this coalition called the Clergy League for Emergency Action and Response.
KIM (26:28):
You got it right. <laugh>
GEORGE (26:29):
Right. But you're not clergy, and you're there. That's right. And you're helping us. That's right. So I think this is fascinating because, uh, there's a sense in which we, we started out with this whole thing and we were like, "Well, let's get our clergy together to do this because, you know, we have, these are the people with the moral voices." And yet, what happens is then Kim Verriere shows up and is like helping organize us, and she's not ordained. And we're, we're, we're sort of like, "Well, but don't we actually believe in the Christian circles of something called the priesthood of all believers, right? That we, we like to say every member of minister and things like that, right? And so actually, I would say, Kim, you have helped us to get out of our little shop and feel as if we're actually in partnership with everyone.
GEORGE (27:25):
And, uh, it, it's been, been a delight to watch. Oh,
KIM (27:28):
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Who knew? Who knew if that could be the role that I play? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think, um, there's something about, um, well, labels, you know? Yes, right. Labels get us in trouble all the time. Yep. And I think if we're just paying attention - uh-huh. To what's in front of us, I mean, it is the skill that I, of a spiritual director to be able to notice. Yes. And, um, and so noticing where is God moving? What, what's happening here? Where is there an invitation? And so the invitation to collaborating with people who are a little different than you - uh-huh. Not in your label - uh-huh. Is something that I think that this, these times absolutely call us to.
GEORGE (28:14):
Great. Yeah. Great. Well, uh, they've called you, but as we conclude this conversation, I, I wonder if you have any thoughts about Kim variers out there that haven't yet gotten involved. Uh, what would you say to them as they listen to your story, uh, and, and, and wonder, you know, am I where I need to be? What would you say to them?
KIM (28:39):
I think, again, it, it's the, what, what's the one thing I can do that feels a little bit scary? Okay. That feels a little bit outside - uh-huh. Of what I've done before. But I can say yes to - uh-huh. And see where that takes you. Okay. It's, it's where is that invitation? And the thing is, the things that you know you're already good at, the things that you are already trained to do, the things that in your life you've naturally gone to, start there. Yes. And then you go that one little step outside of that. Nice. And that's what got me here.
GEORGE (29:17):
Someone has said, "Faith is walking to the edge of all the light you have and taking one more step."
KIM (29:26):
That's it.
GEORGE (29:28):
Thank you for doing just that. We're grateful to be partnering with you in all these good ways in our community.
KIM (29:35):
Happy to do it.
GEORGE (29:36):
Join us. And until next time, keep the faith. Thanks, Kim.