Faithful Dissent: Hadi Jawad on Dignity, Human Rights, and the Death Penalty
Hadi Jawad's path into activism began with a phone call. In the late 1990s, his sister in Pakistan told him that relatives from Iraq had shown up at her door, having walked the distance to escape the suffering caused by US and UN sanctions. That call set him on a path that led him to the old Dallas Peace Center and eventually to co-founding Human Rights Dallas, an organization built around a simple conviction: dignity is the foundation everything else rests on.
In this conversation, Hadi and George Mason talk about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the long push to get Dallas designated a Human Rights City, and why Hadi believes denying people basic rights is ultimately a judgment on their humanity. The conversation turns to the death penalty in Texas, where Hadi lays out the statistics on executions and racial disparities on death row, and closes with a reminder that one person, like Rosa Parks, can shift the world.
Hadi Jawad is a Dallas-based human rights activist and community leader with decades of experience advancing peace and justice. He co-founded the Crawford Peace House during the Iraq War and helped establish the North Texas Civil Rights Project, now part of the Texas Civil Rights Project. He is the co-founder and president of Human Rights Dallas.
Watch the video, here.
GEORGE (00:33):
Welcome to Good God, conversations that matter about faith and public life. I'm your host, George Mason, and we're continuing today a series we're calling Faithful Dissent. And one of my favorite Dallas dissenters is with us, Hadi Jawad. How are you, Hadi?
HADI (00:49):
George, I'm good. Thank you for having me again.
GEORGE (00:51):
Absolutely. So Hadi, uh, is a co-founder of Human Rights Dallas. He is a long, uh, time advocate and, uh, peace builder in Dallas. Uh, and, uh, he's doing a lot of work right now and some things that we're gonna be talking about. But Hadi, I think because of the nature of this series, we r- really want people who are sitting out there asking themselves, "What can I do? I'm not sure that I have influence. I'm not sure what my networks are or my gifts, but I want to do something." And you have come to this work, uh, not as an ordained, uh, minister or, uh, you know, religious leader, but as a passionate advocate. What's been your inspiration to get involved? How did it start? Who, who motivated you and inspired you?
HADI (01:43):
It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. Uh, in the late 1990s, I received a call from my older sister who was in, who lives in Pakistan and said that some of our relatives, my dad was born in Iraq. She says, "Some of our relatives from Iraq had shown up at her doorstep." She didn't know these people. They were distant relatives of ours. My dad's cousins and their families had shown up at her house in Karachi after things got so difficult for them to just live life because of the US instigated and U - and UN imposed sanctions on the Iraqi nation, on the Iraqi people. Um, they were seeking refuge. And they said that they had walked the distance from Iraq to Pakistan, which is, which is inconceivable. It's incomprehensible. Right, right. Because there are no roads, there are no buses, there's, there's nothing.
HADI (02:36):
Um, that kind of motivated me to think what is going on, uh, what is the role of the United States in this, in this, uh, uh, in this suffering of innocent people in Iraq. And, uh, the more I dug into it, the more I sort of got, um, uh, angry and, and, uh, and upset and, and I said this, I, I cannot continue to live my cushy, comfortable life here in the United States, uh, while my brother and my family members are just going through a horrendous, horrendous, uh, situation. Uh, and, uh, began to, uh, inquire what I could do here locally. And somebody pointed me to the old Dallas Peace Center. Uh, which was the only organization I found, uh, that was interested. They welcomed me with open arms, and that was a faith-based organization. Right. It was founded by the Mennonites. Right.
HADI (03:35):
Uh, the Peace Mennonites, uh, and the Quakers were involved. Yeah. The director at that time was actually a Quaker. Okay. Uh, state representative Lon Burnham. Uh, and they welcomed me with open arms and, uh, said that they would support me, whatever they, whatever, whatever it is that I wanted to do. So that, that was my beginning, beginning in activism in, in, uh, in Dallas, uh, mid to late '90s.
GEORGE (03:58):
So I think you're pointing out something important, and that is when, when, when people are truly motivated to get involved, there's usually something that has gotten personalized for them in terms of the pain and suffering and justice going on in the world. For you, it was your relatives in Iraq. And then that led you to see the same kinds of things happening in other people's lives, right? And, uh, and, and, and then it wasn't just about how do I help my family, but it was, how do I help the, the human family to begin to live more justly and at peace with one another?
HADI (04:35):
Exactly. So that, that was, that was my initiation into - uh-huh. Uh, uh, wor - into, uh, peace work. Uh, I'm, I'm beginning to call it more dignity work. It's, it's the bottom line after - Yeah. Three, four decades in this, in this, i- i- in this, in this work has, uh, convinced me, taken me to a point where I, I, I see, uh, dignity as being the most important goal that we can aspire to, uh, uh, to protect. Uh -
GEORGE (05:06):
This is something I hear you say frequently when we are in, uh, different places and you are speaking about, uh, the human rights Dallas organization that you co-founded. Uh, and, and i- i- in your speeches, you, you always say dignity comes first. Explain that.
HADI (05:25):
Yeah. So, uh, dignity is something that is inherent, uh, in all human beings. Uh, dignity has this quality of transcending all kinds of barriers that are, that are mostly, uh, been constructed by, by human beings. So dignity, uh, transcends, uh, for example, um, uh, ethn- ethnic differences. Uh, it transcends the differences of language. Yes. It transcends gender. Uh, it's, it transcends, uh, geographical differences, nationality differences. Uh, dignity is something that unites all human beings. We all possess dignity because of the fact that we were born. Um, it's, it's God-given. Uh, I look at my own faith and I, and I read the Quran, and the Quran says, " <foreign>, we have given dignity to the children of Adam."
GEORGE (06:22):
Yes. Yes.
HADI (06:23):
There's absolutely no distinction in that statement. Right. All children of Adam have dignity. Uh, and it's the same in Christianity. It's the same in Judaism.
GEORGE (06:35):
Right. In Christianity and Judaism, we, it's said a little differently. It, it, it said that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. Uh, that wouldn't be the way, uh, Islam would say it because, uh, there's, you know, more of a protection of, uh, Allah in, in that sense. And so the idea is you, we're created in the image of Adam, uh, but the difference is not much different. It's the, it, it ends up at the same place of universal human dignity and worth, right?
HADI (07:07):
Absolutely. So what we say in our, in our work, uh, at Human Rights Dallas is that in the aftermath of the horrors of the Second World War, nations got together and said to each other, "We cannot live like this anymore. We have to find a better way." And they found, they found the word dignity also. Yes. And that's where we get it. Uh, for example, the first sentence of the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states, "All humans are born free and equal in dignity and human rights." Yes. So our interpretation, our understanding of that is human rights, the 30 articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are, were created to protect human dignity.
GEORGE (08:02):
Now, I think it's worth pausing to say a few words about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Um, 1947, I believe it was.
HADI (08:13):
1948.
GEORGE (08:14):
48. Okay. Right. And I know Eleanor Roosevelt was very much in- involved -
HADI (08:19):
Big player, big player.
GEORGE (08:20):
In, in that. And, uh, so, you know, one of the things I think people don't realize is that, you know, the United Nations, people gathered from all over the world, uh, really made a commitment to this. And I don't think many people really even know that it exists and it's worth looking up. It's not hard for you to Google this and to, to find out all that it is. And if you, you know, want to, you can go to Human Rights Dallas, and I think you'll find that on the website as well. But, uh, but say a little more about what those 30 articles represent.
HADI (09:00):
The, the, the, the spectrum of the 30 articles, um, uh, covers, um, human dignity. That's, that's what the bottom line is for us. Uh, it, it tells you that you have, uh, a right to an education, that you have a right to clean drinking water, uh, that you have a right to participate in the, in the political process. Uh, it, it, it, it gives you, uh, it gives you. The 30 articles give you, give you dignity. That's what the 30 articles in our opinion are describing. Right. Um, housing, uh, food, uh, all aspects of human needs are covered in, in, in the 30 articles. And they give you, they give you that protection, uh, uh, underneath the, uh. Now, the, the Texas Constitution religious rights, I mean, it covers the gamut, the spectrum of what a human being, what it means to be a human being.
HADI (09:56):
Uh, and they looked at it because of what they saw just a few years earlier - uh-huh. In, in, in the Second World War. The carnage, the, the destruction, the, uh, the, uh, complete annihilation of morals and ethics. Uh, and, and they knew that they had to create something new for humanity to survive. And we believe at Human Rights Dallas that the, uh, uh, that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UDHR is, is, uh, uh, uh, ostensibly the, one of the greatest documents that humankind - uh-huh. Ever produced. Uh, God produced, gave us the scriptures. Uh, uh, humankind gave us, uh, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and we think that's a very significant step forward. And you are absolutely correct. Uh, it is not as well known as it ought to be. Right. And that's been part of our work with the City of Dallas.
HADI (10:51):
We have been asking them, uh, unsuccessfully so far, but we have, we're not giving up hope, uh, that someday the 30 articles will be displayed at City Hall. Uh, it should be on our buses. It should be on our trains - uh-huh. So people understand what these human rights are. And
GEORGE (11:09):
We'll get back to that in just a moment, but you've opened up the question of the city of Dallas becoming a human rights city. Uh, this is something that you and others have proposed year after year after year, and it's gone unheated. I think it's interesting to note that Jackson, Mississippi, uh, of all places is a human rights city. A place where, uh, the history of, uh, of racism and segregation has been, you know, really thick, uh, in, in, in our history, and yet they have made that decision and Dallas has not. That's an embarrassment. How, how is that possible in your mind?
HADI (11:52):
Yeah. So, um, it's a, it's a good question. Um, why did it happen in Jackson, Mississippi and why has it not happened in Dallas? Um, first, uh, just a little bit about the concept of the human rights city, uh, grew out of a small town in Argentina called Rosario. Uh, the activists like us, me, uh, uh, some, uh, local government leaders and private sector leaders, businesses got together and said, "Hey, let us figure out, um, how we can, uh, put the lens of, uh, human dignity and human rights in making Rosario a better place, a safe place for everybody who lives here or might be touring here or just passing through." Uh, and that idea caught on. Uh, today there are multiple US cities, Atlanta, Pittsburgh being among the larger ones. Uh, Dallas would be the largest if they decide to do this. Eugene, Oregon, uh, around the world, York, England, uh, Barcelona, Spain, and there's, there's hundreds of cities around the world .
GEORGE (13:03):
And what is the cost to the city of doing this?
HADI (13:06):
Absolutely nothing. <laugh> So yeah, it's, it's amazing. So basically declaring yourself, "Oh, by the way, we went to the, uh, Dallas County back in 2017, Dallas County Commissioner's Court, and we presented this idea to the Dallas, to Dallas County, and they loved it. Dallas County became the second county in the nation - uh-huh. To self-declare - Okay. Itself - All right, let's. A human rights county.
GEORGE (13:33):
Let's credit the county.
HADI (13:34):
Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so the notion basically is very simple. The city declares itself in a resolution that, hey, we think that human dignity is really important, and we think that if we start making policies looking at, through the lens of human rights, we put human rights and human dignity at the center of everything that we do - Yeah. Whether it's housing, whether it's schooling, whether it's food, whether, whatever it is that is coming before us - uh-huh. For deliberation, we're gonna look at it through the lens of human , human rights.
GEORGE (14:11):
Okay. So see now, it doesn't cost anything on the front end to do it, but when you have such a commitment, there's a kind of covenant that says that's gonna shape our policies, which also means we're going to invest in things that are for the welfare of the dignity of all human beings in our, in our city. That may change things in terms of the budget, in terms of where investments are made. And I think that it's important to sort of maybe, uh, step back and say that everyone doesn't believe that everyone deserves all the rights you enumer - nu - enumerated. That is to say housing and clean water and those sorts of things. Now, I'm not saying I agree, but I'm saying that's part of the debate, isn't it? And that is that, you know, w- w- when you say that someone or the community will provide these things, uh, rather than you taking, uh, your own, taking, you know, what they call, uh, pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps and providing for themselves, that sort of thing, uh, essentially what that does is it, it divides the dignity of human beings into those who have the resources to achieve those rights and those who don't.
GEORGE (15:39):
And part of this notion of saying everyone has equal dignity means that everyone has equal rights in, in certain things. So I think, you know, part of the struggle is, uh, getting people to understand that when you deny these rights to people, it's tied to your view of their actual humanity, right?
HADI (16:02):
Absolutely.
GEORGE (16:03):
And, and so if, if you can get people to acknowledge that everyone has equal dignity, then the rights follow after that, because you and I both know that in, in peace building work, part of the problem is you, you can't get to genocides, you can't get to war unless you somehow view someone else as less than. And there's a lovely band, uh, re - bracelet that Human Rights Dallas has. And what does it say?
HADI (16:42):
There's no such thing as a lesser person.
GEORGE (16:44):
No such thing as a lesser person. So I think that's a, a critical message, uh, that is in all of this. And I think, you know, that's wh- where we need to challenge the Dallas, the city of Dallas, uh, to acknowledge that that's true and then have a human-centered s - uh, you know, uh, policy, uh, for, you know, all of our budgeting and, and our approach to things.
HADI (17:07):
I, I agree with you. Uh, and if I may, uh, add one more word that we have not, uh, discussed yet in this discussion, uh, is the word opportunity. So dignity, if you, if I'm gonna give somebody dignity, I'm also saying I'm gonna give them equal opportunity. Ah. Uh, so if we look at the history of Dallas and our history, uh, we have not really dealt with our history. Uh, for, for 13 years, we, we highlighted the, the brutal murder of young Santos Rodriguez - Right, right. In our work. In fact, the whole human rights Dallas concept grew out of the work that we did for Santos. Uh, Dallas has a sordid history of discrimination and racism - uh-huh. Whose ill effects are still evident today. Yes. It's still with us the way the city's laid out. Uh, a lot of people were just blocked from opportunity.
HADI (18:04):
So what we're asking for is, and we need, we need a new paradigm, uh, pastor. Yeah. We need the, the times that we're living in, uh, the, uh, intractable problems that we are confronting and facing, we need, we need a new language. We need a new way to deal with this. And I, and we think there is a way forward. And we think dignity and equal opportunity gives us that, that vehicle, that language, uh, to move forward. So, um, opportunity is, is a big part of the work that we are proposing to the city. If we are to become a, and Dallas aspires to be an international city, uh, we got a lot of international attention in the aftermath of the FIFA World Cup games. Dallas wants to be a interna - recognized as a international hub, international city. We will have to figure out, uh, uh, a way forward to make that happen, to make that a reality.
HADI (19:02):
And we think giving people equal opportunity, respecting dignity and human rights, and educating, bringing, bringing the principles of, uh, uh, human, human rights to every nook and corner - Yes. Of our life in Dallas. For example, Eleanor Roosevelt, I'm gonna paraphrase what she said. She said this, this human rights concept is not just limited to, uh, politicians and leaders in the world's capitals. It belongs to, it belongs in the tiniest places that not even show up on a map. Ah. It belongs in our workplaces. It belongs in our schools and colleges. It belongs in our marketplace in the places where we work. And that's the, that's the whole motivation behind human rights Dallas, is to bring this level of understanding of human rights - uh-huh. Under the UDHR, which by the way, you made a comment earlier that I wanna push back on against. The US is a signatory too.
HADI (20:00):
We, that is law here. The UDHR is the law here. Along with Texas law and along with the US Constitution.
GEORGE (20:08):
Okay. If all of that is true, does it apply to non-citizens living within the United States?
HADI (20:17):
Yeah. Yeah, it would. Yeah. So, uh, the only qualification for, for this is that you have to be human. So - Right.
GEORGE (20:22):
This, this is the point. Yeah. You know, if that is so, then we as a, as a country are violating the law that we have adopted about universal human dignity and rights with ICE enforcement, uh, doing what it's doing with non-citizens among us.
HADI (20:42):
Absolutely. We're violating, we're, we're violating international law that we have signed on to - uh-huh. Every day. E- every second almost here in this country. And that, that needs to shift. That needs, that needs to shift. And hopefully generations that are coming after us will take up the mantle and make sure that we are in compliance - Right. Of international law as a nation. We want, we wanna begin with, with our city. And I think this answers your question about Jackson. You know, why did it happen in Jackson? They s - maybe it has to do with the suffering - uh-huh. That took place in Jackson, Mississippi. And the people in Jackson, Mississippi came to the same conclusion nations did in the aftermath of the Second World War. Right. That we can't go on like this. Right. We have to find a better way.
HADI (21:26):
And I think, I think human rights and human dignity gives us that, that vehicle, that formula, that language, that motivation, that understanding that something different is possible.
GEORGE (21:37):
Okay. So Hadi, I wanna shift then, uh, from the Universal, uh, Declaration of Human Rights to something else that Human Rights Dallas and you are passionate about, and that is ending the death penalty. Yeah. This is, um, this is a, an ongoing, uh, matter of dissent, uh, that you and Rick Halperin, your, your partner with Human Rights Dallas, uh, continue to, uh, foster. And, uh, we know that we have, uh, the National Day, how to, what, what are you calling it? The National Day?
HADI (22:11):
The World Day Against the Death Penalty.
GEORGE (22:13):
Right. Which is October 10th coming up. And, uh, there will be a demonstration of that on the Mockingbird Bridge at, uh, Central Expressway on that day. Uh, noon, is it?
HADI (22:26):
From noon,
GEORGE (22:26):
Yes. From noon. And, uh, some of us will be present with you in that. Uh, but, you know, w- why do you think we continue to see the death penalty as a solution to reducing the murder rate when statistically we know that it doesn't do so? What, what is it about, uh, us as a people that we continue to, uh, to, to allow this to take place among us?
HADI (23:01):
Yeah. So it is, uh, the death penalty is a very, as you know, a very complex, very complicated historical issue. Um, it has, uh, it is entrenched here in Texas. Uh, I prepared a little, little statement about the death penalty and I'll go to it real quick. These are some fascinating facts and figures. Yeah. Texas has executed 600 people since 1982, more than any other state by far. Harris and Tarrant County are the two most aggressive death penalty jurisdictions in Texas at this time. And Texas continues to be the largest jurisdiction in the free world to still use the death penalty. As of May 14th, four executions have been carried out in Texas. Four more are planned for the remainder of the year. This is down from 40 in the year 2000. There has been a steady decline in the last two decades. Texas has the third largest death row population in the nation, 165 after California, 578, and Florida, 243.
HADI (24:09):
70% of death sentences have been imposed on people of color. That's a startling, we shouldn't be startled. We all know this. Well,
GEORGE (24:19):
Let, let's also stop and say, what percentage of the population are people of color? You know, the, the African American population in this country is about 13%. And I'm, I'm not sure, you know, if we're talking about Texas, the Latino population is larger, but nonetheless, still, um, the Anglo population is, is the, the largest. And so for 70%, it's disproportionately - Yeah. People of color here.
HADI (24:48):
Yeah. And, and more than 40% are black.
GEORGE (24:52):
Well, there you go. 40%. Well, well, 13%.
HADI (24:56):
13% of the population. Yes. Since 1973, more than 200 individuals who spent time on death row have been exonerated. Mm. Including 18 who were convicted and sentenced, uh, uh, to death in Texas. There is strong evidence that the state of Texas has executed innocent people, including, and I, I, I would like to mention these people's names. Please. These were innocent people who were executed by the state. Carlos De Luna, Ruben Cantu, Cameron Todd Willingham, Gary Graham, and Larry Swearingen, and there are some others. 23 states have abandoned the death penalty, and governors in four states, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and California have imposed moratoriums, bringing the total number of states not using the death penalty to 27. So mercifully, we are more than 50% now. Yes. More than half the states. Mercifully - Right. This trend will continue and we will be done with this barbarity once and for all.
HADI (26:01):
We cannot, we cannot rightfully call ourselves a civilized nation if we continue to go down this path - Yes. Of locking people up for 20, 30 years in a cage, telling them all the time, "We're gonna kill you sooner or later."
GEORGE (26:01):
HADI (26:20):
It's just barbaric.
GEORGE (26:21):
Yeah. Well, how can people get involved?
HADI (26:26):
Uh, that's a good question. Um, there are so many opportunities. Uh, you were at the recent fair that we put together, uh, at the Dallas Public Library. 45 organizations showed up. We were overwhelmed - uh-huh. By the, by the response from the community. Uh, people doing all kinds of work in all kinds of areas. Uh, human rights work. Uh, if, if you are interested in, in, in getting engaged, in, in getting involved, um, we can, we can, we can guide you. Right. Uh, just, just send us an email. Go to, uh, uh, wwwhumanrightsdallas.org.m. Humanrightdallas.org and, uh, send us a note. Okay. Uh, tell us, uh, what, what, what, what you're interested in, what keeps you up at night, what bothers you, what you would like to do something about. And, uh, you'll be amazed the power of one individual is, is, is, uh, is not really clearly understood.
HADI (27:25):
One human being can make a lot, lot of difference. Yes. Uh, I always tell people, uh, just remember there was only one Rosa Parks that sat down in that bus. One woman. Yes. Shifted the world, shifted our, shifted our consciousness. So don't un- underestimate what you, one individual can do.
GEORGE (27:45):
And I think, I think when you mention Rosa Parks, it's, it's important to, to say she was not a clergywoman. She was not a professional religious person. She was a s- simply a person who had had enough and said, "I'm willing to put myself out there, uh, and, and, and say this is wrong." Yeah. And I think this is what our faithful dissent, uh, series of conversations is about. And how do you exemplify that so beautifully? Thank you for your passion, for your commitment to justice, and for dignity and human rights. We're grateful to be partners with you in Dallas.
HADI (28:22):
I'm a great fan of yours, uh, Pastor George. Big fan. Thank you
GEORGE (28:25):
So much. <laugh> And so until next time, keep the faith.